It took a long time ...

[OneGuyKs]

it could only AF with it's own lenses, lenses that were needlessly more bulky and heavier because of the extra motor,
Greg

In lens motor design is superior. The AF accuracy is usually better, even for Sony SAM lenses.

[bfitzgerald]

I'd debate that point fairly strongly myself.

I believe the issue Greg refers to is the lack of in body AF motor which robs users of AF all for the cost of a part that is insignificant in the build cost of a DSLR..I added the lack of metering (which is deliberately removed) to put folks off buying older Nikon lenses. It's almost as if they should have changed mount for lower end body users they have no incentive to stick around.

Back to the AF points I can't make my film 7 miss I tried and very hard but even using all my screw drive lenses I simply have very little reason to complain Of course screw drive means more noise (I can live with it) I also avoids in lens motor failures as well (huge advantage longer term) Looking at the new Nikon 50mm it's slower to AF than the screw driven older one. I think it's a bit odd ball to say "In lens motor is superior" quieter yes I'd agree faster nope not often longer lasting? Well I have doubts there too. Oh and BTW the 50mm f1.8 SAM was actually louder than my 50mm f1.7 that's the price you pay for using cheapo motors that one came back to haunt Sony as their SLT full time AF in video bodies were stuck with noisy SAM lenses.

I had to laugh on that one...

[DrScottNicol]

The A580 is looking a very good deal in the UK - down to £479 body only, which incidentally makes is cheaper than the discontinued A500, A450 and A390 where these are still in stock . The way stuff gets priced just seems weird. The A580 is also now £80 cheaper than the A55.

Birma, I'm glad its not just me - camera equipment pricing here in the UK just seems either totally random or incredibly competitive .. or a bit of both - Sometimes High street shops will price things way higher than Internet vendors, then other times this will undercut the best deals I can find anywhere on the web. Throw in oddities like PC World* which is notorious for pricing high on almost everything they can get away with (I've seen SD cards with a 100% mark up compared to Amazon for example) yet are still selling the 50mm f1.4 for 279 whilst most UK internet sites have it at 300GBP plus.

*for what its worth, PC World are having a 'blue cross' sale - 20% off marked price on today until Weds - at my Reading Branch, they had an a33 going for 430 GBP or there abouts (end of line clearance) which looks a good deal assuming the a35 will come quite a bit higher when it hits the shops).

[Greg Beetham]

Thanks Barry for taking care of business, I’d probably add.
Focus accuracy depends mainly on the body not the lens so much, although there is the question of how well the gear train is designed, how much slack in a given lens there is, or how much wear etc. the main thing to remember is we didn’t NEED SAM lenses in the first place, all Sony had to do was build the existing design to a better quality standard.
I think overall it’s more to do with market manipulation; the camera manufacturers have seen the writing on the wall and are always looking for some way of getting people to buy more cameras as sales decline.
It just depends on the particular brand in how much they are willing to jerk their customer base around, it could be a risky business changing things too much in one go, it’s much better to do it gradually then they get the benefit of selling lots of intermediate stage models.
In the case of the D40 it appears that Nikon’s customer base didn’t mind at all being jerked around, something that wasn’t lost on ever alert Sony, so within a few years Sony had released a whole batch of me too dumbed down D40 type cameras that were, by and large, superior by quite a margin as the could still use older lenses, but the thing was, the market was just about D40’d out by that stage so they never sold anywhere near as well.
In the case of the A580, it’s the end of a series of models introducing video into a dedicated still camera system, a dead end in other words, brought about not because the original STILL camera design was in any way defective for taking still images, it was dead end because Sony and other camera manufacturers painted themselves into a corner design wise; mainly by not offering a dedicated still camera made the best one could make it for taking stills ALONGSIDE one that has video compromises.
If sales staff on the front line pointed out to customers the various pitfalls in having video included in a DSLR design versus one without it would have been interesting to see the outcome sales figures wise; unfortunately that never really happened, all the manufacturers did the same thing, incorporating video and compromising their still camera systems at the expense of designing a better dedicated still camera.
The best SLR type camera with video design so far is the SLT no question, it can PDAF during video with existing lenses, for those interested in video in a still camera it is, that is, nice work Sony.
For those not interested in video it’s still a bunch of compromises, latency in the EVF, overheating if IBIS is left turned on (why have a feature that only works with another feature if it’s turned off?), battery consumption, double duty shutter (questionable durability), ghosting (a minor issue in general photography, but there nonetheless), flash system compatibility problems (delayed reaction), no mirror lift capability for serious photographic applications, and an accessory system that has many things missing or compromised.
Greg

[bfitzgerald]

Greg call me a Luddite but I'm sticking to OVF's for as long as I can. Just imagine folk might whip out an "OVF DSLR" in 10 years time and say wow..this is a "real camera" lol
Nikon got away with the D40 as it was at the time a good deal and well priced. The D5100 is however meant to be a "step up" but the devil is in the details it's not much of a step up really not in my view.

SLT won't be around for long as even EVF purists don't want anything in the way of the image it might have done ok in the lower priced sector but higher than that I think most folks are a lot more fussy. SAM was a waste of time it did nothing at all bar scare folks Sony might dump the in body motor which they can't as too many lenses are screw driven. Over in Pentax land they have a terrible reputation for in lens motors SDM= Sudden death motors failing out of warranty leaving you with an expensive repair bill.

Even so with SAM Sony could have at least made the motor quiet if nothing else..the ones I tried were pretty noisy maybe they'll sort that out!
All the indications are that most DSLR users don't shoot video much at all if we're going to have stills shooting compromised for a minority of users that's IMO a bad thing. Oh and nice to see Sony rushed out a firmware update to sort the flash issues

[OneGuyKs]

Thanks Barry for taking care of business, I’d probably add.
Focus accuracy depends mainly on the body not the lens so much, although there is the question of how well the gear train is designed, how much slack in a given lens there is, or how much wear etc. the main thing to remember is we didn’t NEED SAM lenses in the first place, all Sony had to do was build the existing design to a better quality standard.
Greg

the photo review site photozone dispute that claim and says the AF accuracy with SAM lenses is superior to old screw-driven lenses. Given he knows a lot more about this topic than you do, I will take his words.

Also, Sony engineers know much more than you do whether they needed SAM lenses or not, so why don't you leave that to them? Screw-driven lenses still don't AF with A580's CDAF system. SAM ones do.

[OneGuyKs]

Over in Pentax land they have a terrible reputation for in lens motors SDM= Sudden death motors failing out of warranty leaving you with an expensive repair bill.

Yes, Pentax makes crappy stuff, but just because they make crappy stuff doesn't mean there is anything wrong with sonic motors in lenses.

It's superior (more accurate AF even on cheaper SAM according to Klaus from photozone).

[OneGuyKs]

For those not interested in video it’s still a bunch of compromises, latency in the EVF, overheating if IBIS is left turned on (why have a feature that only works with another feature if it’s turned off?), battery consumption, double duty shutter (questionable durability), ghosting (a minor issue in general photography, but there nonetheless), flash system compatibility problems (delayed reaction), no mirror lift capability for serious photographic applications, and an accessory system that has many things missing or compromised.
Greg

These are unresolved bugs with A55 not inherent problem with video and EVF.

And OVF has serious comprises. The major one being that it's OVF! I want WYSIWYG view, not a view that I can already see with my eyes! Plus it has a moving, clunky mirror that can blur photos. No thank you. I will take the mirrorless system (if they can catch up with AF tracking speed) over this nonsense. In the meantime, SLT is the only solution until CDAF catches up to PDAF. When that happens, I agree, we will happily ditch SLT.

[bfitzgerald]

I'd love to hear about the advantages of EVF for flash photography so I'm leaving this space clear for folks to add a long description of the plus points..




(sound of long silence


Back to the AF debate aside from giving Pentax SDM lenses a very wide berth (I wouldn't say they make crappy stuff though they have problems on that part)..I've yet to have any screw drive lenses fail on me. As for AF accuracy there are a lot of factors at play here I'm not convinced screw drive has major issues here.
As for contrast AF on the A580 yes it won't work with screw drive lenses but amazingly it does on my Pentax (and I believe Nikon also bodies that have the AF motor that is) so I'm of the feeling Sony basically crippled it in that department on purpose. There is no reason you cannot do contrast detect AF with screw driven lenses.

Heard the same thing about wireless ratio flash can't be done on digital with one off camera flash..see my thread in the flash section for a thorough de-bunking of that myth
Just because Sony don't do or offer something does not mean it's impossible.

[Greg Beetham]

the photo review site photozone dispute that claim and says the AF accuracy with SAM lenses is superior to old screw-driven lenses. Given he knows a lot more about this topic than you do, I will take his words.

Also, Sony engineers know much more than you do whether they needed SAM lenses or not, so why don't you leave that to them? Screw-driven lenses still don't AF with A580's CDAF system. SAM ones do.

The whole reason why Sony is wasting time inventing SAM lenses and fooling around with CDAF is because of video, most people who do STILL photography didn’t need either of them, but I bet they wouldn’t say no to more SSM lenses. The glass in the SAM lenses is fine, but they could have made them a standard screw drive lens without the extra weight and size instead. And having to NOT add the motor into the design would have made them even cheaper.
Greg

Ps. Ha ha you might have a long silence there on the usefulness of the EVF in the studio Barry….

[Dr. Harout]

I'm curious how will the A77 be in that matter, i.e. in studio work.

[Greg Beetham]

Just how well Sony has done it's homework will be evident in due course I reckon Doc, they might be taking their time getting all the bugs ironed out, after all they are intending to put an SLT into the 7 arena, that's a courageous move, it will have to be squeaky clean in all departments.
Greg

[agorabasta]

The whole reason why Sony is wasting time inventing SAM lenses and fooling around with CDAF is because of video, ...

Nope. Electric coupling with an in-lens motor is simply much cheaper than some precision mechanical gear could be.
In fact, given the modern tech, producing a screw-driven lens would be cheaper to do with the cam's screwdriver coupling to a position sensor in the lens and then again feeding the control signal into the in-lens motor

[Greg Beetham]

Nope. Electric coupling with an in-lens motor is simply much cheaper than some precision mechanical gear could be.
In fact, given the modern tech, producing a screw-driven lens would be cheaper to do with the cam's screwdriver coupling to a position sensor in the lens and then again feeding the control signal into the in-lens motor

Nope yourself agorabasta, are you saying that the basic reason was that Sony was suddenly overwhelmed with ultraism and wanted to give us cheap lenses and it was by pure accident that they discovered they could focus with CDAF at some point after they made them?
Greg

[agorabasta]

Greg, those SAM lenses are next to useless with CDAF. They are too slow.

At the same time, all the current DT SAM lenses are dirt-cheap.

Hence some conclusions...