Back to SLR thoughts and ramblings

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bfitzgerald
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Re: Back to SLR thoughts and ramblings

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Whatever happens, I'm sticking to what I have. Over time, used prices should recover a bit ie better value. I will probably buy used for a second body. I bought the 28mm F1.8 G used it's half the price of a new one, and well looks near enough new anyway!
All the makers will do the same strategy they have done, and hope it works (and it probably won't)

Jack up prices, sell less, increase prices to make up for less sales..and the "cycle of doom" continues. I call it the "lose lose"plan. Make photography so unaffordable, that a large number of people just don't bother and keep using their phone; and many of the others just buy used gear because the cost of new is too high. Well OEM new gear that is, third party can be alright value. Either way SLR gear is going to be cheaper, and much more numerous bodies and lenses. I think NIkon ramped up prices 20%, and Canon slapped 2 lots of price hikes on lenses since late last year. It's a miracle I managed to get a DSLR FF body for under 2 grand, now the list price is 2400 euro! i wouldn't pay that, and the D850 is up to 3 grand I think so is the 5dIV..both are not that new 2016 and 2017.

I know the shortage of parts has been partly down to that, but let's see if those prices "drop", when that improves?
Most makers seem to want to focus on "new higher end expensive stuff", bodies and lenses. Sony are just as bad, they kicked it off with the A7IV, which was a lot more expensive than the A7III. The A7III hasn't really come down in price much since release, that's part of the reason I also bailed out. Makers don't really want DSLR around, they'll keep a few going for a while, perhaps years. They want people to buy new MILC cameras, and lenses. Their costs are lower and profits higher. As a consumer I use what I want to, not what a company shoves at me hoping it will fly. Pentax will probably throw out a really expensive FF DSLR, I can't see even die hard OVF fans going to Pentax at all. They just don't have the system to back it up and in 2022, their prices are just as awful as anyone else. Pentax used to be value, now they are not. 1500 for a 16-50mm, wow just wow...scary stuff.

What sealed the fate of the A99 was the last shoot I was on, I had notable lag on some shots, no idea why a few seconds with some. Shooting blind, wasn't fun, I missed some important shots due to that lag. It's too annoying to use for action. I did, but it's not that fun. Newer EVF's are better, yet I just want to see things clearly!

What is also nice, well I can use any aperture for AF in video..no crippled adapter A to E nonsense. I can just make sure I get lenses that will work with MILC later on, so I won't get hit there. Or I might not even bother with mirrorless, this seems to be good enough in live view, and the image quality is excellent in all lighting conditions. Another very small point, those stupid files/folders that Sony splat all over the card...oh boy I do not miss those at all!

Here's a fake blur shot on a pixel phone, notice how it just suddenly blurs out..doesn't look right to me
PXL_20220616_104537309.PORTRAIT.jpg
PXL_20220616_104537309.PORTRAIT.jpg (57.83 KiB) Viewed 100706 times
But outside that phones are good, really good now. Just amazing that camera makers don't even put a fight up, just prices. If anything, the reverse should happen, cheaper prices to get people who are into photography using cameras, new stuff. They'll learn the hard way..

My quit list is
Pentax, such a tiny market share it's hard to see how viable it is long term
Micro 4/3 how long with OMD hold the line?
L mount - Seems to be going nowhere. Sigma have weird offerings, and nobody seems to want to touch Panasonic's DFD autofocus, other than a few video shooters.

Mix in some current events/war/covid and inflation/cost of living raging out of control. Hard to see a thriving camera industry in this climate, and it could last for quite a few years. People's disposable income is going to take a pretty big hit, they're less likely to dump huge sums on photo purchases.
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Re: Back to SLR thoughts and ramblings

Unread post by classiccameras »

Its a funny old world, I think as I have done in the past, build a kit from the used market and with Canikon you have a huge choice, Looking at what options there are if you want to stay with cameras, DSLR's are a logical choice on many levels. I refuse to buy any thing new these days, My M5 was second hand as was my old 650D which I have now sold.

You have made a wise choice with the Nikon and I can't see anything better for the money. If I get too frustrated with the lack of M lenses I might re look at a DSLR, either Canon or Nikon. Yes phone pictures are excellent and most will want to use them on holidays etc. I have seen some remarkable pictures from mobiles. Pentax must be a lost brand by now, Micro/4/3 especially Olympus do have a fairly large 'cult' user group, the company has already changed hands a couple of times over recent years. As you say the camera manufacturers are not hitting back at the phone users with tempting offers.

The cycle of doom or loss loss seems to be entrenched into their minds. I agree, I think Canikon will continue with a much reduced range of DSLR's.

I have always thought what a shame Canikon didn't give us a decent full size OVF like Pentax, Never understood that.
Run with what does it for you is my motto. The blur in the picture is not optical, its from the mobile's digital processor, looks so over done and artificial
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Back to SLR thoughts and ramblings

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The 1DX-III has a 0.76x OVF and the D850 has a 0.75x one. I'm not unhappy with a 0.70x. I think the A900 was 0.74x
I'd hope Nikon do an updated D850 for their users, incorporate some of the D780 live view AF/video stuff.

I just wanted an all rounder, something which is good at multiple things. The D780 suits that need perhaps better than some others. The 5dIV is nice enough camera, still today. Yet not quite there in IQ and usability v the Nikon. DR and low light not as good, decent just not up to that 24mp BSI sensor. Completely different beast than the old 24mp sensor.

I would have looked at Canon MILC, but that R6 price is too hard to justify at 2.5 grand, it's even gone up a bit too like most other makers. I would probably have give it a shot at 2 grand and put up with the plastic build. 20mp is fine and the AF is solid. Below that Canon are not interesting at all, the EOS R is just a 5dIV with a single slot and the RP is cheap, yet I can't stand that old sensor. The DR is just pathetic even v the old A99 which is a decade old. Had Canon got a new RP out, it might have been worth a look.

Ditto with Nikon MILC, Z6II got a price hike, firmware support seems lacking. Cost was more than the Nikon + add adapter cost which I would need for some lenses. Z5 isn't cheap enough to tempt me, and the first gen Z6/7 CF express, no thanks not changing card formats. I'll see how things go, I'm not going MILC, if I do get a body later on I'll adapt it, but that's some way off unless I can justify it, or the body can pay for itself with work etc.

I'm not sure where Micro 4/3 is going, and Pentax/Ricoh seem to have lost the plot with their picture effects firmware, that only works on specific lenses (sigh). Wow, lost for words on that one! I'm not likely to be buying much new gear, too many deals around!
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Re: Back to SLR thoughts and ramblings

Unread post by classiccameras »

There's no doubt about it Nikon make the best use of their sensor, but having said that the later 24 mp APS-C Canon DSLR's do as well.

Thinking back a few years now I had the most wonderful Nikon, the D90, it was a sheer gem and although only 12-mp gave outstanding IQ picture quality, not sure who's sensor they used then but it wasn't Sony. I regret selling it. I would get another if a good one came along that has not been beaten to death or a million shutter counts.

12 MP does not concern me, its the end product that counts, my old 10-mp Olympus E-510 takes out standing Jpegs and that has a Panasonic sensor.

I have never really been that influenced by all the manufactures and reviewers hype on MP eg. it must be better because it has more. sometimes not the case. For landscapes and stationary subjects, I have noticed that the lower pixel count cameras some times take nicer pictures.

Not sure about Micro 4/3, they seem to have a dedicated user base, but Olympus are launching a new model nearly every 6 Months, all up grades on existing models, Eg, the OM-D E-M10 is now at Mk 4, crazy. As you say Pentax seem to have lost the plot. I'm not bothered with video, if I was I would buy a cam corder.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Back to SLR thoughts and ramblings

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Friend of mine just got a 90D and says it's a nice camera, but Canon have cut back on their build quality, he said it's not as well made as a 60D let alone 7D series.
Another friend sold off his remaining Canon gear, and didn't get a lot, he is using micro 4/3 and has been for a good while. That's a 7D he sold and about 3 lenses, I think he got £500 odd for the lot.

Industry is in a spiral of cost cutting, you don't even get hot shoe covers with cameras any more, many ship without chargers etc etc (I got a charger with my camera). I think Sony started that with their bean counter, who cut the power cable length in half to save a few pennies, then we saw the "sauce tray" rear lens cap v a real lens cap. Canon were always mean with their bundles, didn't even get a hood with non L lenses. Now we are into plastic cameras at over 2 grand.

It's a shame how things panned out with Sony, despite not being an SLT fan or EVF one either, had they continued with A Mount. I might have stuck around. For me it's the right move to try something different. A nice used market for Canikon, lot of selection. I just don't have a lot of interest in native mirrorless right now. I also can't stand focus by wire, and almost all the new lenses are that. Weird and quite annoying.

Shot from the D780 which I sold to the local paper ;-D got to pay for itself a bit! (sigma 105mm lens)
DSC_1078.jpg
DSC_1078.jpg (154.88 KiB) Viewed 100526 times
It's much much easier using an OVF v the A99's EVF for moving subjects. Sony were far too premature and frankly wrong to go EVF/SLT on A Mount
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Re: Back to SLR thoughts and ramblings

Unread post by classiccameras »

The 70D was the last decent build on a Canon, Plenty around on the used market. Great shot of the Runner and very Nikon colours, well done for the sale

I have been looking at all the shops and sites selling used Nikon's and one thing they seem to have in common certainly in APS-C up to a D7200, ( Above that is out of my price range ) all seem to have been abused and beaten up with very high shutter counts, there were exceptions but the lowest I came across was a D7100 with 16,000 Counts, Canon's, don't seem to be as badly treated or have very high shutter counts, I wonder what that tells us.

Used Canon' don't get a lot of money probably because its a saturated market I Would I have stayed with Sony, There were many features I liked and some I hated, lack of user noise control at low ISO settings. They also could have put in a weaker anti alaising filter to aid sharpness. Sony colour pallet not as nice as Canikon and certainly not as nice Olympus.

Did I like SLT, ,no, but I learnt to live with it, why they dropped the SLR after the A580 I don't know, If SLT was any good others would follow, SLT did give Sony a poor press. A feature I liked was the DRO and it was quite superior to Canikon. Sony Lenses were quite gave fairly respectful performance but nothing to right home about unless you bought higher end or 3rd party, IBS was a bonus.

The option to use Minolta lenses was a great and I took full advantage of that because they were so cheap. They in my opinion altered the Sony colour pallet to a more pleasing hue than the over contrasty Sony lenses

If I can find a decent D7100 not beaten up and not a huge shutter count I might just get interested, but so far, my little M5 does all I ask of it. I' would be willing to sell it for a Nikon but lets see how things pan out. However, going back to a DSLR will be more weight to carry.
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Re: Back to SLR thoughts and ramblings

Unread post by classiccameras »

Just a short post to Barry, the Nikon 610 Mk 2 has caught my attention, mainly because its quite small for a FF. finding one that's not beat up or has high shutter count is the problem. I would also need FF lenses although the used market is the place to look.
Apparently the Mk 2 had the new shutter ?
Any thoughts
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Back to SLR thoughts and ramblings

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Same I didn't like SLT much, but I got used to it over time. That said, I'm entirely comfortable now using an OVF, and moving forward I'd probably go OVF again with a second body. I'm not against the idea of an EVF camera down the road, but I will not give up using an OVF camera, and that is why I am not investing in a native MILC system, that and the limited choice/cost. What bugged me with Sony was, well they just went ahead with a compromised way to get an EVF, with a mirror in the light path. It was never really going to fly, so I'm not sure why they bothered.

I have not used the D610, Nikon had their QC issues with the D600, evidently fixed with the D610. I'd have a look on MPB, just keep a look out each day, and find what you want. They move stock quite quickly, so you have to be on the ball as such. eBay can be OK if you get the right deal. I'm more likely to eventually get a D750 as a second body, though prices are not great right now, over time they should be.
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Re: Back to SLR thoughts and ramblings

Unread post by bakubo »

News from today in Japan.

Nikon stops developing new SLR cameras

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20220713_18/
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Back to SLR thoughts and ramblings

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

bakubo wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:59 am News from today in Japan.

Nikon stops developing new SLR cameras

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20220713_18/
At the risk of sounding like a republican (which isn't something I aspire to)
Looks to me like "fake news", no sources given on the original article. It's doing the rounds on the usual trashy sites that have no reviews/real articles, petapixel, fstoppers, even yes DPReview (also in my trashy site list). Nikon said they are still making/selling/servicing and that's alright by me.

I don't expect a ton of development on DSLR, I'd hope a few things happen, but it's just that hope. I went with Nikon because they have a more up to date DSLR product, v the 5D IV which is a 2016 camera. There is no news here, nothing. It's just usual click bait junky stuff to get people to read/click on ad revenue. Mirrorless isn't working for me, so if the entire production of DSLR's stopped today, it wouldn't make any difference. Huge used market out there for me and others. If camera makers are dumb enough to walk away from OVF/DSLR buyers, then they will lose that revenue stream. :mrgreen:

Richard Butler is quite wrong, he assumes most people don't care about they type of viewfinder, yet many do. And they're not "extremists" either.
If DPR put time into making meaningful reviews, v junky click bait nonsense/MILC fanboy propaganda articles. We might get somewhere. Look at their staff levels, tons of people around doing it seems almost nothing. Sad to see what was a premium site, turn into another Petapixel.
Thom Hogan's response
https://bythom.com/newsviews/nikkei-nee ... staff.html
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Re: Back to SLR thoughts and ramblings

Unread post by classiccameras »

The industry has been occasionally plagued with Fake News, much of it directed towards the user. Olympus went through a bout of fake news re M/4/3 a few years ago.

As I have mentioned recently I no longer own a Sony camera and my intention was to return to a DSLR with OVF, I have been looking at the Nikon D7100 and Canon 70D level of camera but after handling both they were just a bit to heavy and bulky for my meagre forays into landscapes and long walks.

However the Nikon D5200/3 and Canon 750D caught my eye as small, compact and lighter DSLR, both with reasonable mid range programs and excellent sensors. Both have their merits and faults, so its early days before any decision, Lenses for either is not a problem. I like my Canon M5 but lens selection is pitiful and I can't see Canon making more while the newer mirrorless cameras get all the priority. With a DSLR you just know where you are and they have stood the test of time.

I'm not sure if there is a good review site any more, A good example for years was/is Amateur Photographer Magazine who loved their pet Canon's Nikon's and Pentaxe's. Some review sites conduct so complex reviews that it leaves me cold, what on earth are they on about, DP reviews would mark down a camera for a tiny anomaly hardly likely to affect the picture. Over embellished reviews I call them.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Back to SLR thoughts and ramblings

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

If I read something and there is no source, or reference, then it's not "real news". It was just a speculation article, it means nothing at all for users.
The DPR article recently gone up, is an opinion piece, poorly formed IMO - though they can say what they like I don't care much. It's not just about OVF v EVF preference, it's the entire user experience including body size/shape, controls/ergonomics etc. I'm not sure the DPR article is anything more than mirrorless fanboy chest beating, and DPR are pure MILC fanboys through and through. Even marking down cameras because they are DSLR's! I think that says a lot about them..oh and we're still waiting for that K3III review 18 months later..wow talk about non existent workflow. Oh sorry it's a DSLR so they won't bother doing a review.

There are few good review sites these days, DPR went downhill rapidly when Simon left, one of the early staff. It's not been a good review site for a long time. Nor do I trust their reviews much, they miss obvious things which I have seen plenty of times. AP are similar, though I find them a bit better these days, perhaps worth a look. Imaging Resource, are so far behind with reviews it's beyond funny. Once they sold out a few years back, it's a shadow of it's former self.

The real problem with most of these review sites is they don''t have nearly as much to review, like they did in the DSLR glory days. There are of course things to do reviews on, many lenses etc and other items, but it's easier to just pick up junky click bait articles to bag some more ad revenue. I've no idea what the big 2 plan for DSLR's and nobody does except the companies. Other than a real piece of news it's a waste of everyone's time.

I believe the D5300 has a built in GPS, I might take that over the D5200 based just on that.
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Re: Back to SLR thoughts and ramblings

Unread post by classiccameras »

There is so much more going for a DSLR, that I think some photographers have been swept up in the mirrorless hype and have forgotten what great cameras DSLR's are to use.
Canikon made DSLR's for every pocket and skill levels and they have to be applauded for that. I'm looking at the prosumer models from both, So far the Nikon D5000 series has caught my eye as have the Canon 700D and similar, both in the used price bracket.

As I have said I no longer own a Sony SLT A mount camera but I sometimes yearn for the old A37,I loved using that compared to the A58, at 16-mp in my opinion gave better pictures especially Jpegs than the A58, and it was so small and light, I have to admit though during my SLT ownerships it was a love/hate relationship.
Yeas ago my Favourite Nikon was the D90, would I get another one, not sure

There was a saying amongst photographers and press a few years ago that the sweet spot for pictures was between 12mp and 18mp. Well we have moved on with pixels now and with putting more emphasis on video I feel still capture is now less important.

As for review sites which one would you put your faith in, if it exists ?
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Back to SLR thoughts and ramblings

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

It's about margins and trying to get people to buy the, "next new thing..which happens to be more expensive, cost more and higher margins"
I think the camera industry is kidding itself, there is some kind of untapped customer waiting to unload vast sums of cash buying into a new system. Or they are hoping some people will just offload DSLR gear and buy tons of MILC stuff.
No doubt some have offloaded their gear, and re-bought native MILC systems. Honestly, adding it up - it's far far too expensive IMO to do that.

How long DSLR's will be around, I can't say. I'd hope production would carry on for a good few more years. I am hoping Nikon will keep making DSLR's perhaps longer than Canon. Either way, an informed buying choice. I simply went Nikon because of the lens choice (Nikon have an interesting F1.8 prime range more interesting than Canon IMO), I prefer the more "Minolta" ergonomic experience. And long term the D780 is a much more up to date camera v the Canon 5DIV. Both are excellent I have use the Canon. Going forward as an all rounder the Nikon seems to work better for me. I prefer the sensor, design, tilt LCD and dual SD slots, and the BSI 24mp sensor is outstanding so far I'm very impressed in terms of low light and DR.

I'm not expecting new DSLR models, but there might be a chance of that. I would say not with Canon, I don't know about Nikon. Even if there isn't, the Nikon is more than good enough for me. I have 0 interest in investing in native MILC, and I thought quite hard about it. If I do get a body later, I'll be adapting lenses to that and using DSLR's still.

The problem with Sony was they ditched DSLR's over a decade ago, they never made a decent DSLR with live view and a good viewfinder. Instead it was smaller pentamirror ones. SLT was merely a transition experiment, very few choices and the A900/850 nice OVF aside, are very dated even compared to old DSLR's. I just have very few options on A Mount OVF. I'd hate to see the industry force EVF's on people, I think a lack of choice is just plain wrong.

I'd look around at reviews, camera labs is very honest with his, IR can still do a decent review. There are not many places that are great for reviews, but there are some good ones on YouTube, Maarten Heilbron is very consistent and often very in depth. I find his videos to be useful
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Back to SLR thoughts and ramblings

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Quick note to add I did play with an A700 a few months ago side by side with a KM7D, and even the owner agreed that the Minolta was a "better camera" in terms of design/handling/use.
Not that the A700 is a bad camera, no doubt the 12mp CMOS sensor is a good step up in some ways. Just the overall experience isn't as good.
That sums up Sony for me. The main reason I walked away, isn't just adapter frustrations/up sell tactics, or a sour taste with Sony's dealing/ignoring A Mount customers. It's simply 2 things...I don't like the design of Sony E mount cameras, I dislike them in the hand and they have nothing in common with Minolta. There is no body ergonomic development, all the same bodies repeated over and over, with almost no variation.

Lastly, do I trust Sony to keep supporting A mount legacy gear via the adapters and firmware? Will they keep making the adapters long term. I can't say trust is reinforced with Sony's silence on A Mount. I just don't trust the company sorry to say.

I don't think Canikon will ghost their customers in the same way.
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