A900 vs. DX3, Canon FF, Red, Panasonic, etc.

[A1000]

CMOS DESIGN

Sony is the world's foremost imaging sensor maker. It has several times higher CCD output than the next manufacturer - Matsushita. It was making super high quality camcorder CMOS long before Canon was capable to do it. Practically all studion digital film production is made with Sony cameras - F900, F950, F23, F35 - from Star Wars to Spy Kids 3D to Spiderman. Canon does not make pro, only prosumer video cameras. Matsushita can't compete with Sony in the pro market at all. Go to any TV studio and you will see one brand that dominates - Sony. Sony knows a lot about cameras, CCD's, CMOS, etc. Their new less expensive pro cameras EX1, EX3, as weel as the higher-end XDCAM 700 are breaking all sales records.


Sony Power and their Different Games

Sony for decades did not even look at what their electronic competitors are doing. They created better products, opened new markets. Then their founder suffered a heard attack and things changed. There was no longer any bold leadership with vision. While Matsushita and Canon unfairly influenced many Internet forums, Sony personnel was not allowed to get on these forums. When Canon was unfair, they just refused to provide them with their parts, and swithched to Fuji for their pro lenses. Canon quickly learned where their place is. Same with Matsushita. They tried to trumph Sony with some TV network equipment purchasing. Sony just made better new products and the studio switched back to Sony. Check on the Panasonic M2 format fiasco.


How Sony Acquired the K-M Division

Sony cooperated closely with Minolta, but were going to acquire the Contax brand from Kyocera, as they needed to get into the DSLR business. Konica realized that they would lose their chance to get rid of their money-losing division, so they rushed to transfer it to Sony, practically for nothing. Sony however refused to pay for acquiring all their antishake patents, for the Dynax-Maxum brand names. KM was free then to license or to continue licensing their antishake to other companies, including Pentax.



RED

Red has been making a lot of noise and has one video camera product so far, with CMOS coming from who knows where. Funny thing is that Sony EX1 with 1/2" CMOS has better low light sensitivity that Red 35 mm CMOS, even when all is converted to 1080 resolution. Check cinematography.com Red forum, where cinematography pros keep on making fun of the inferior Red product. Red has no chance to compete in the still camera market. The products are plagued with problems; they take Sigma lenses and with mainly cosmetic changes turn them to "superior" Red lenses, etc.


Compact Cameras with Video

Sony model 500 is the only one that zooms without microphone picking motor noise, or which auto-focuses well enough in the video mode


Canon FF Cameras

The black spots on right side of highlight transition demonstrate how Canon CMOS and related stuff is inferior compared to Sony.


Sony vs. DX3

DX3 costs $5000 more than F900; Nikon does not have wide enough range of lenses with sufficient image quality, Sony now has a wider range, plus all Sony lenses are stabilized, so it makes a lot of sense for Nikon and Canon users to switch systems and save not $5000, but a lot more, plus in Canon's sake have a system with much higher image quality. Sony FF CMOS is manufactured with IQ of being the most important, Canon'd CMOS is more commercial, less pro.


DX3 sensor

It is all Sony design. Sony already indicated that their A900 could have live view, but that the sensor development would hold the camera shipment by 6 months. They are selling this improved A900 sensor to Nikon. Nikon is incapable to design sensors of Sony quality, and when it did design couple in the past, it was always with Sony's help.


Sony 6-month delay policy

For a number of years Sony had a policy not to sell their solid state products for 6 months since they launch products with these devices. That is why there was a delay of about 6 months between A700, A900 and similar Nikon products. Some of their ClerVid and Exmor devices - e.g. their advanced video CMOS sensors - they refuse to sell to competition for up to years.


Sony vs. Matsushita

JVC was up to recently owned by Matsushita, an electrival primarily, not electronic company, which makes stugff like GE, makeslight bulbs, even toilets, etc., etc. At various industry shows JVC bragged that their most expensive video cameras use not Matsushita - Panasonic CCD's, but ones made by Sony.

Panasonic could never compete with Sony in pro video camera equipment, because Sony reliability was much higher, and their sensors were much better, including less noisy. Once a network, I believe ABC, bought Panasonic digital equipment for all its studios and stations. It was soon discarded and replaced with Sony better equipment and the ones who made the wrong purchasing decision were fired. Since then the word in the industry is that you can't get fired for buying Sony. Panasonic still sells some, by giving it to the stations at extremely low cost. It helps their image, nothing else. They and Thomson were able to supply this way equipment for the last Olympics.


Sony and formats

Except for VHS and DVD, all video formats were created by Sony, including the pro field - C, U-Matic, U-Matic SP, Batacam, Batacam SP, Digital Beta, DV, DVCAM, XDCAM, EX XDCAM, 8 mm, Hi8, HDCAM, HDCAM SR, etc., etc. VHS was Matsushita - JVC development, after Sony showed Matsushita their Beta prototype and wanted them to use it, which they refused, because of only 1 hour recording time. At that time a Sony employee went back to the car and brought in longer playing - 2-hour - Beta. Panasonic copied what they could to improve their VHS, which they were developing, then teamed up with RCA and the inferior format won. DVD is Toshiba format; Sony lost on that one. Video formats that Matsushita is using in pro video gear are derivatives of Sony developed formats.

CD was a joint Philip - Sony development; 3-1/2" disketts were Sony developed, so was Mini Disc, Blu-Ray, etc.


Sony New Video Cameras


F35 is now being tested in Japan with 4k resolution = 8 MP.

Panavision Genesis is also Sony developed camera and Sony wanted to make it 4K from the start - it uses 12 MP 35 mm chip, byt Panavision talked them out of it, since theater projection quality is under 2K (2x1K=2K). Some new theteras are now using Sony 4K projectors and 4K is one of the new digital cinema standards.

Cameron, Rodrigues, all the known directors use modified Sony cameras for 3D film production

New system with 24 MP is now tested in Japan for broadcast as Ultra Definition. Japan has used HDTV broadcast for about two decades already and all the Cameras were again Sony


Future Still Cameras

will have quality video function. Everything will be different. They will be constantly on and when the shutter is pressed a burst of images will be recorded from before to after the shutter is pressed. Another mode will allow constant video recording at the same time. Sony will have the best cameras then, Nikon will move to #3 spot in the market share.

Sony have quickly trippled its market share - just look at the figures for the last year or two and check todays's figures


Sony's unfortunate past

Sony was mismanaged after its founder suffered a stroke. At one time it could become the foremost DSLR maker; it did not. The new CEO is rejuvenating the Sony spirit.


Sony is working on the following products. The code names are different, but I am told that the following will likely be the actual model numbers. Don't ask me for any details.

- A50 APS camera without viewfinder
- A500 APS camera with live view and video function
- A800 FF Camera
- A1000 FF camera
- new lenses - high resolution telephoto, etc.
- 2 new camera systems - lenses, where the mirror stays locked up and the new lenses are closer to the CMOS. This will be used in high end FF cameras which will rival MF resolution and in smaller inexpensive system - these will use APS sized sensors - and will be without mirror boxes, and will compete with Panasonic G1; new lenses are being developed; the older ones will too be useable. The cameras will accomodate both type of lenses - the ones with short distance between the sensor and then lens, and the older lens design, however not all older lenses will be usable.
- back iluminated sensors
- video-still conbimation cameras, which will be superior to what the competition can do, just as their implementation of live view is superior.

They are planning to to become No.1 DSLR maker. When Sony started, after WW2, they were nothing more than garage-type operation that was started by couple of engineers. They made the first Japanese transistor radio. They made their own transistors. They and the Czechs that time developed the world's first transistor radios, but the Sony one was scrapped for inferior plastic parts and the Czech one because the Communists saw future in miniature electron tubes. The world's first transistor radio then became US made Regency - inferior and unreliable. Sony made their first one a year later in 1955. It was highly reliable. The Czechs did so in 1958 - the first one in the Soviet block. Breznev wanted the Russians to make theirs first in the Eastern block, but they were not able to. They could not make it working. Sony old transistor radios sell for up to thousands of dollars - among collectors, next ones in line are old Toshibas. Matsushita radios sell for some 10x less.

Sony had a bad decade, but things are turning around.

[KevinBarrett]

Lol, welcome to the forum.

[Dr. Harout]

And a welcome from me too.

[alphaomega]

A warm welcome to A1000. That was an amazing run-down of Sony's involvement in film, video and still photography. Initially, when wanting to move from film (Minolta MD) to Digital I purchased Sony's DSC-R1 because of the sensor size and CZ lens - and no dust intrusion being possible. I then watched developments. The A100 did not appeal due to AF speed and shutter noise. I instinctively felt that going for a Sony DSLR was the right thing to do as whatever Canon and Nikon came up with the SSS in the camera was right for me I felt. Then came the A700 and I bought one with the CZ 16-80. I judged this was the right camera for me with 12 Mp etc. and I have not regretted the purchase having added the A350 because of LV. I just felt that Sony would becom one of the "big beasts" in DSLR and I still feel I am in the right camp. A1000's dissertation above has just reinforced that "gut feeling" as I do not have the extensive knowledge displayed above.

[Javelin]

welcome! and wow

Sony had better tread carfully here. it seems in this paragraph that they are intending on changing the mount? Minolta users have been down this road before and it wasn't pretty

- new lenses - high resolution telephoto, etc.
- 2 new camera systems - lenses, where the mirror stays locked up and the new lenses are closer to the CMOS. This will be used in high end FF cameras which will rival MF resolution and in smaller inexpensive system - these will use APS sized sensors - and will be without mirror boxes, and will compete with Panasonic G1; new lenses are being developed; the older ones will too be useable. The cameras will accomodate both type of lenses - the ones with short distance between the sensor and then lens, and the older lens design, however not all older lenses will be usable.
- back iluminated sensors
- video-still conbimation cameras, which will be superior to what the competition can do, just as their implementation of live view is superior.

They are planning to to become No.1 DSLR maker. Sony had a bad decade, but things are turning around.

[A1000]

No change in mount without keeping campatibility. The short distance is needed because it would translate to increased resolution and smaller lens design. The larger system would be full frame and would be able to double the resolution of A900. Somehow the rear element of the lens would be extended into the body and the mirror would have to be up for the system to function. It would use new prime lenses. I hope that I understood right, but practically all lenses would be compatible with both of these systems, but there are some new functions that may not work with the older lenses, supposedly some of the older lenses don't have some functions as the later ones have, including the current lenses. I hope I made myself cleaerer now, but I am not an expert on the Alpha system, so I don't know which functions are these. Basically all the existing lenses would work the same way as they do on e.g. A300 or A900; the future ones will have some extra functions - somehow there will be some information coded into the lenses and it would be transmitted to the camera in a way that if selected, it would allow equal ilumination in the whole frame and no chromatic aberation due to some software function. There would be an adapter for the smaller system, to extend the distance to the sensor with the current-type lenses, because the body for the smaller system would be much thinner. I don't know if I understood it right, but there may be a new mount and an adapter even in the larger system, but I'm not sure. The mirror would lock up or move up, or something. I am not sure.

[pakodominguez]

... Somehow the rear element of the lens would be extended into the body and the mirror would have to be up for the system to function. It would use new prime lenses. I hope that I understood right, ...
... supposedly some of the older lenses don't have some functions as the later ones have, including the current lenses. I hope I made myself cleaerer now, but I am not an expert...
... I don't know if I understood it right, but there may be a new mount and an adapter even in the larger system, but I'm not sure. The mirror would lock up or move up, or something. I am not sure...

Hi A1000,

Too many "I don't know"s made your first and impressive post a little less impressive... The shorter lens to sensor flange project make sense for APS-C sensor or smaller, but not that much for FF sensor, unless Sony will impose the super wide angle trend. I think that, including the CZ 17-35, we are well served for wides right now.

Then, Isn't true that old Nikon lenses can't resolve 24 MP. They are as good as their Minolta counterpart (we are talking about good lenses, not cheapo kit lenses)

What I find interesting (BTW, already on my wishlist) is the "somehow there will be some information coded into the lenses and it would be transmitted to the camera in a way that if selected, it would allow equal ilumination in the whole frame and no chromatic aberation due to some software function." Something that I imagine like a pluggin coming with those special lenses (cuz, of course, not available for third part lenses, not even for Minolta lenses if Sony keep their path the same way they did with the new Flashes)

Anyway, lets see what happens next year first...

Regards

[A1000]

To Sonolta:

I heard it differently. I heard that during the first meeting Akio Morita, one of the founders of Sony sent someone to the car to bring the 2 hour beta machine.

As far as Ampex, true, they were big in the broadcast world, so was RCA. Where are they now? It did not take long and Sony started to dominate the broadcast industry. Their first recorders were reel to reel 1", U-Matic was 3/4", followed by Beta formats, which were 1/2". What helped Sony most was superior quality, reliability and Trinitron, which for many years no one could have, because Sony bought out the original patents. RCA tried to push their broadcast monitors with ads, where they claimed that you could buy 2 RCA's for one Sony. Sony's slogan that time was Sony - One and Only. RCA ads did not mention Sony by name, but claimed that the name rhymes with balony. The lower end pros did buy RCA, JVC and Panasonic. Another boost Sony got was from getting heavily involved with CCD's, where others were still using tube-type sensors.

As to the Regency first transistor radios, they had 4 transistors and they were low quality. Sony stuff was first rate from the beginning and used advanced circuitry with more transistors.

[A1000]

FWIW...the Nikon lens lineup is not that *thin*...

http://imaging.nikon.com/products/imagi ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-Sonolta

But they don't have the zoom ranges of the new Sony Zeiss lenses - at least not with the required resolution, and they don't have their high resolving lenses stabilized.

This makes the Sony A900 a superior system, and an unbelievable bargain.

[A1000]

Yes, the 2-hour Beta came later, but Sony brought the prototype to the first meeting with them, just did not show it from the start of this higher level meeting. Matsushita was mad at Sony because Matsushita was quite big at the end of war and Sony was just a garage-type operation, and they could not compete with Sony on quality. Beta was based on U-Matic, so it needed less heads for the same performance. U stands for how the tape was wrapped around the head. VHS was an inferior M system, had less contact with the head, so it needed more heads, but it did have longer tapes, and Matsushita teamed up with RCA and basically gave the system to everyone. Sony only had Zenith, Toshiba, Sanyo, and Pioneer on their side, but their superior system had shorter running time. RCA was pretty mad at Sony for losing to them the broadcast market. Akio Morita that time bought Columbia Pictures, to help them with future format wars. Matsushita followed with purchase of Universal, but they sold it soon. They also competed in theater sound. Matsushita system failed, while you can see Sony SSD sound logo on most films. It pinpoited sound direction better. When it comes to shortwave radios, the Sony ones sell for several-times more than the Matsushita ones too - among collectors.

What was interesting is that when Philips created the Compact Cassette, they went to Sony, trying to license it to them. Sony refused to pay them any royalties, but at the end exchanged the CC patents for their Level-Matic patent, which was superior auto-level system for recording.

[A1000]

Yes, Sony is one of my favorite companies, from the time I bought some Panasonic doggie-doo, which was OK on the surface, but was always missing some of the Sony magic. Just like one Live View is not like another live view.

I am talking about the new Zeiss W/A zooms, all stabilized,

[A1000]

Something else, people wonder why Adobe does not work well with Sony cameras - well, they have an excellent video editing software Premiere, but are now losing sales big time to better Sony Vegas software. Sony is their big competitor, maybe that is why they don't support it too well.

[destrian]

As much as it would be cool for all of this to be true that was posted in this post... it just cant be. I love Sony but I highly doubt that they are just Murdering anyone. The A900 is absolutely killer but it isnt absolutely the God of the DSLR world. I am a hardcore Alpha-ite... but I will say this... the day that Sony Alpha system is as low noise as the Nikon D3... I have the second best system in the market. However second best system doesnt mean second best results.

[A1000]

Sony took over the ailing K-M division and they revamped it totally, but it takes time. Just as they dominate the professional and broadcast video field, and digital cinema camera market, they will one day dominate the DSLR market, which will take on until now unheard-of unique video elements. They now have the Minolta optical expertise; they have Tamron producing large share of its output specifically for Sony, and they have the Zeiss lens label; they have the most advanced image sensor division, and they are "the" experts at miniaturization.

This is their 1/4 million $ video camera, with which now all studio digital films are produced:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-F35/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Notice that the lens is Zeiss.

Next year one with 4x more pixel output will be introduced; it has alerady been out in Japan for about 1/2 year in its Beta version.