Sony's Two Track APS-C DSLR Approach

[Dusty]

I thought I'd start a new thread instead of mucking up the 230-380 thread.

I believe that Sony has now engaged in a two track system for APS-C DSLRs. It's obvious that the new models out are to tempt P&S shooters to upgrade to DSLR, while retaining most of the P&S features they like - smaller, lighter, easier to work, etc. Apparently, offering 'lite' versions of the a700 wasn't cutting it.

I can see Sony's reasoning in some aspects. Half a century ago people upgraded from their rangefinder 35mms and old box cameras to 35mm SLRs. It gave them more control, better quality and the ability to look like the pros. I think where this falls down, however, is that the price jump from P&S to the new DSLRs is much more than the jump from a good rangefinder to a basic model film SLR. Most of this has to do with the fact that people cannot focus on their own anymore, and the resulting up-pricing of lenses and cameras laden with electronics to compensate. Yes, I know sensors and the supporting electronics are also a big part of it.

Thus, building a system from a good body and standard lens then versus now mandates a larger cash outlay, something I'm not sure Sony took into account, especially noting the new prices. When I started with SLRs, I asked a pro to recommend a body that wouldn't be too expensive but would give me the ability to build up a pro quality system if I wanted to based upon it. He told me to get an XGM, and I've been a Minolta fan ever since.

Fast forward 28 years: Buy an a380, and you're missing features. Sure, you have a good sensor (assuming it's the same as the 350), but features are lacking to allow you to build a great system without stepping up to a better body. Yes, some of those same features are lacking on the old 200-350 series, but now it seems even more are (see DK's post on the home page).

Of course, lenses and flashes are compatible thru the line, but if I really want P&S abilities, I only need the 18-250 zoom. If the new buyers are not going to step out and learn SLR techniques, why bother with other lenses. If they are, they'll soon realize the limits of their new bodies, and get angry that now they have to buy a higher model, which doesn't have battery or storage compatibility.

This leaves Sony with a crying need for the a500. I envision it as either an upgraded 350 or a 700 with a bit of simplification and/or cheapening of the body build. An a500 with the 350 sensor, better high ISO, faster frame-rates and the essential (for me) and missing PC sync socket, retaining the battery and CF card, would be a great place to start building a pro setup. Add the LV and you have the a550.

This would be a good start to having an advanced amateur/ semi-pro APS-C line for Sony. Update the 700, and you still have room to add lots of models in a 600 series, as well as expand the low-end models with a 400 series.

I really don't care at this juncture to get into possible 800 series or FF debates, but retaining the battery and storage compatibility in future FF models would also be essential, and make it easier for APS-C shooters to step up to the DX format.

Dusty

[bossel]

This would be a good start to having an advanced amateur/ semi-pro APS-C line for Sony. Update the 700, and you still have room to add lots of models in a 600 series, as well as expand the low-end models with a 400 series.

I mentioned in the other thread there is room for two A700 successors. One higher specd than the current A700, one lower specd, as the gap between entry level and A700 successor opens up.

[bfitzgerald]

I am with Dusty on this one. Shame sony did not have an A500 to release at the same time.
I would add, dump the 10mp LV model..2 entry ones are enough for anyone, A500 fills the gap for current users wanting more meat..new A700 due soon..and mess about with FF A800 at some point.

Looks good to me

[bossel]

Barry, would you really go for an A500? The A700 is ridicously cheap in Europe now (lets count the UK as European for this time). A500 might be good once the A700 is no longer and it's successor is presented at 1299 quid , but not now.

[bfitzgerald]

I want something a bit lighter..and that has AF adjust. I don't trust my A200 as much as I should AF wise, I know the A700 might be better, but for me..from now on AF adjust is a requirement.

I would be in the market for an A500..a slimmed down A700, but with most of the stuff there, 4fps would be fine as well, no need for 5 for me. I could even be ok with a pentamirror, make the VF a tad bigger.

[peterottaway]

I think you can make a case for an A400 camera by taking the A380 and putting it in an enthusiast type of body adding the bits and pieces missing from the lower models. To me it doesn't even have to have either LV/Video or high EI capacity, getting the very best out of 100 - 800 range with a credible 1600 would be all that is necessary.This is your basic enthusiast model just as the A230 is follow on to the P & S range.

My suggestion would be a GFP body similar to the A700 with a shutter speed to 1/4000 for any 400/500/600 model cameras and a metal alloy family with a shutter speed to 1/8000 for the 700/80/900 models. All of them would need to have optical view finders, focus adjustment and lens correction in firmware. The 7 - 9 family to have a small group of interchangeable screens and a motor producing 5 fps in FF and 8 fps at APS.

With the lens correction in firmware I would also offer the third party lens manufacturers a two tier licensing scheme. With tier one you just get an unique lens id chip for the camera to recognize whilst at tier two you get the chance to offer your own lens correction software to be downloaded ( through Sony ) into the camera firmware. When you are No 3 and wanting a good and profitable market share I think you need to do that little bit extra.

[bfitzgerald]

The next problem is if there is an A500, what it should be. I don't want a LV model like the 380, with a compromised viewfinder. No problems with sensor based back lcd LV, or if they can do it with a decent VF.

Just a slimmed down (but not too much) A700 would do fine. Thing is we are looking ahead, the A700 will probably get replaced in a few months, or later this year. That's £1000+ for the body..hence the gap thing.

This is why I suspect companies have not gone down the simplified route for lower end models (well not as much as this), reason is upgraders..and people do update models, these new ones I suspect won't appeal to current users..least not many, esp with a media card change, and new battery, no cable release etc. The smartest companies sell models that new users "and" current ones will buy. This I believe is the fatal mistake in Sony's strategy.

[KevinBarrett]

The a500 can be what the a700 was. Two control dials, a relatively fast shutter and frame rate, bright OVF, most of an a700 functionality in a more affordable plastic body. The new a700 level camera has to offer a lot of more advanced features above what it has now just to meat what Pentax just put out:
Distortion, CA and vignetting correction in camera
HDR in camera
Sensitivity-priority shooting
A "green button" for M mode (that looks handy!)
Bigger OVF; 100% and 0.92x
Video (I can take it or leave it, but the market demands it)

And let's not forget what the competition has already had over the a700:
14-bit A/D conversion
Live-view (main sensor, please!)
Faster frame rates
More durable shutter
Micro AF adjustment

I seems we need to make a list of things we definitely want to keep, though, in case Sony does a "+30" job to the a700!

[Javelin]

funny thing about video. there a Sony rep on the DP site that says the sales figures aren't bearing out that video is selling cameras. He says the D60 outsold the other cameras by a wide margin for the christmas season 2008. He also said there is a lot of doubt about the sensors ability to last on cameras where video is used a lot. and called the D90 a nice beta test of Sonys sensor. Sony's in kind of a uinique position here because they, being the maker of the nikon sensors know exactly what Nikons sales and failures are and can use that nformation to guide their marketing plans.

He went on to say that entry level is where the bread and butter is at the moment and mentions a price point of 899 being the dividing line betwen what sells and what doesn't.

The whole video thing might just die out altogether. if Canon had the same experience Nikon did with all the marketing money they put into the video ability they may in the end abandon it.

[Dusty]

The a500 can be what the a700 was. Two control dials, a relatively fast shutter and frame rate, bright OVF, most of an a700 functionality in a more affordable plastic body. The new a700 level camera has to offer a lot of more advanced features above what it has now just to meat what Pentax just put out:
Distortion, CA and vignetting correction in camera
HDR in camera

The first 2 I don't want the camera to do, I want to control that in PP software. Is Pentax's HDR any different than Sony's DRO?

And let's not forget what the competition has already had over the a700:
14-bit A/D conversion
Live-view (main sensor, please!)
Faster frame rates
More durable shutter
Micro AF adjustment

I seems we need to make a list of things we definitely want to keep, though, in case Sony does a "+30" job to the a700!

If Nikon is using Son'y 12 bit sensors and upscaling them to 14 bit, that's something that should also be possible in PP software. We all agree that they need to bring the Micro AF Adjustment into the APS-C models, and there are those who feel the need for faster frame rates. The other points I would agree with.

Dusty

[KevinBarrett]

Pentax's HDR actually uses multiple exposures at different settings, whereas Sony's DRO lightens the shadows from a single exposure. I half expected Sony to start introducing a similar feature in the Alpha cameras once I saw the HX1's multiple exposure features.

[bfitzgerald]

I think Dusty should head up the camera division at Sony, he knows what users want!

[Dusty]

I think Dusty should head up the camera division at Sony, he knows what users want!

As soon as they offer me that position, I'll let you all know.

In the mean time, I'll keep my current job in marketing.

Dusty