a55 EVF questions

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WaltKnapp
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Re: a55 EVF questions

Unread post by WaltKnapp »

bakubo wrote:As a reminder, I am the person asking for a simpler, more basic, more consumer, plastic p&s with a bigger sensor -- although some here, as you say, keep wanting more and more. I am asking for less and less. :)
Actually what we have seen ever since Sony got into DSLR is increasing demands step by step turning DSLR into that consumer P&S. Demands there be nothing higher than such cameras.

The future looks quite grim for advanced cameras if they are required to be consumer p&s.

There is nothing wrong with consumer cameras being improved, I'm all for that. But it's not the only camera I want to see offered. And that's where we are headed.

Walt
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WaltKnapp
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Re: a55 EVF questions

Unread post by WaltKnapp »

agorabasta wrote:
So what's the state of play then?
Greg,

All's quite straightforward. The a55 SSS for the stills operates exactly the same as that of a700 or any other Sony DSLR.
Due to the limitations of evf, particularily the EVF lag that's a extremely incorrect statement.

Walt
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bakubo
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Re: a55 EVF questions

Unread post by bakubo »

WaltKnapp wrote:Actually what we have seen ever since Sony got into DSLR is increasing demands step by step turning DSLR into that consumer P&S. Demands there be nothing higher than such cameras.

The future looks quite grim for advanced cameras if they are required to be consumer p&s.

There is nothing wrong with consumer cameras being improved, I'm all for that. But it's not the only camera I want to see offered. And that's where we are headed.
I am not asking that all cameras be simple and fit in a pocket, just at least one. :)
mike2008
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Re: a55 EVF questions

Unread post by mike2008 »

WaltKnapp wrote:
bakubo wrote:As a reminder, I am the person asking for a simpler, more basic, more consumer, plastic p&s with a bigger sensor -- although some here, as you say, keep wanting more and more. I am asking for less and less. :)
Actually what we have seen ever since Sony got into DSLR is increasing demands step by step turning DSLR into that consumer P&S. Demands there be nothing higher than such cameras.

The future looks quite grim for advanced cameras if they are required to be consumer p&s.

There is nothing wrong with consumer cameras being improved, I'm all for that. But it's not the only camera I want to see offered. And that's where we are headed.

Walt
How you can reach these conclusions in the total absence of evidence to support them is beyond me.

Later this year the A77 will be released, let's revisit your point of view then. I rather think that we will see that you were very wrong indeed.
agorabasta
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Re: a55 EVF questions

Unread post by agorabasta »

WaltKnapp wrote:
agorabasta wrote:... The a55 SSS for the stills operates exactly the same as that of a700 or any other Sony DSLR.
Due to the limitations of evf, particularily the EVF lag that's a extremely incorrect statement.

Walt
You've posted a piece of utter nonsense. Some mix-up, per chance?
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UrsaMajor
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Re: a55 EVF questions

Unread post by UrsaMajor »

agorabasta wrote:
WaltKnapp wrote:
agorabasta wrote:... The a55 SSS for the stills operates exactly the same as that of a700 or any other Sony DSLR.
Due to the limitations of evf, particularily the EVF lag that's a extremely incorrect statement.
Walt
You've posted a piece of utter nonsense. Some mix-up, per chance?
In Walt's defense, when I casually read your first comment I also thought your statement was absurd. I could not believe that you would make a mistake like that, so I reread your comment more carefully.

When I did so, I realized that you were talking only about the SSS function - which I agree appears to function like the other Sony/KM DSLR cameras.

I suspect that Walt made the same error that I did, but did not reread your comment and catch the correct meaning of it.

With best wishes,
- Tom -
mike2008
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Re: a55 EVF questions

Unread post by mike2008 »

WaltKnapp wrote:
agorabasta wrote:
So what's the state of play then?
Greg,

All's quite straightforward. The a55 SSS for the stills operates exactly the same as that of a700 or any other Sony DSLR.
Due to the limitations of evf, particularily the EVF lag that's a extremely incorrect statement.

Walt
What EVF lag? The EVF lag you see due to showing the previous shot in the viewfinder during fast fps or the lag between sensor and EVF in single shot mode? The tests I have seen so far all indicate that the latter is equal between OVF cameras and EVF cameras, so I really don't think you're being honest in this comment, or at best it's very very confused. I imagine you do this deliberately because you enjoy spreading false rumours on anything you don't like.

Pathetic.*

*Needs less insults -Kevin
alphaomega
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Re: a55 EVF questions

Unread post by alphaomega »

mike2008
Relating to what you stated above I suggest you read Walt Knapp's long explanation on page 4 of why he cannot work with a viewfinder that exhibits the slightest of delay in displaying the object he wants to photograph. He is not referring to the display in the back screen. He is comparing the instant display in an OVF (real time) with the (very slight) delay in displaying the image in a EVF viewfinder. If you appreciate what Walt is trying to do you will inderstand that milliseconds of "processing" delay may lead to him missing the shot. He is probably in a very small minority, but he has a requirement he is convinced that no amount of processing improvement will resolve. He will never see (real time) in an EVF but always the past. It may be milliseconds but that is too much for him.
This would appear to be a real problem for a certain category of photographers.
Argonaut
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Re: a55 EVF questions

Unread post by Argonaut »

Here's a way you can test your EVF, OVF and your own reflexes:

http://www.online-stopwatch.com/full-screen-stopwatch/

(I used only an a55 for this 'test'.) Photograph the screen. The timer resolves to 1/1000 of a second. When I time the "delay" between pushing the button and the time displayed on the photo, I find that it takes about 1/10 of a second longer when I view through the EVF or live view screen, compared to watching the screen directly and pushing the button. I kept the button half-down in all cases, to eliminate time for focusing. I also tried two techniques: (1) waiting until the target time appeared on the screen, and (2) anticipating the target time. The total delay time went down somewhat when I anticipated, but the difference of 1/10 of a second stayed fairly constant.

I also found that my reflexes cause between a 1.5/10 and 2/10 second delay on their own. I'm slowing down, it seems. No herp-tongue photography for me.
Sony a77ii, RX-100 I; RX10 iii; Rokinon 8mm f/3.5; Tamron 17-50; Sony 70-400G; Lightroom 6.2; Photoshop CS5; PicturesToExe 8.0.
alphaomega
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Re: a55 EVF questions

Unread post by alphaomega »

Argonaut, If I understand Walt Knapp correctly his problem exists before he even presses the button. His problem is that what he sees in the EVF is not what is going on in reality because of the delay in displaying the outside ongoings. He wants to photograph a frog setting off on a jump at shuts it eyes and he wants to take a picture exactly at the right moment. The EVF will show him something that has already happened. It may be milliseconds but it is history he can see and he misses the moment. With a good OVF as he has with his A700 DLSRs he sees what is going on real time. That is a differernce for him and by the time he presses the shutter he records history rather than the moment. I may be wrong but that is my understanding of the problem. I am sure that the A55 is as good as the A700 the moment the shutter is pressed. The problem is the A55 records history because he looks in the EVF on an A55 and always sees "history" in "real time".
Argonaut
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Re: a55 EVF questions

Unread post by Argonaut »

Alphaomega, I agree with you, basically. What I was trying to do is quantify this EVF delay factor. My tests show the EVF "delays reality" by about 1/10 of a second. It also shows that my reflexes are responsible for as much as 2/10 delay - one that I would also have with an OVF, for instance.

I have seen another posting over on DPReview where Walt said the EVF delay was in the 1/2 second neighborhood, which I would dispute. I just wanted to see for myself what the delay might be.

For Walt this 1/10 is the difference between getting the shot and not. For my single-shooting it tells me that I will have to add 1/10 of a second to what I have been doing for years, which is anticipating (or trying) the moment of truth in my action photos, mostly birds. This is not a big deal for me. The bigger deal is continuous shooting while panning, and there the EVF is definitely coming up way short for me.
tom power 53
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Re: a55 EVF questions

Unread post by tom power 53 »

If they can reduce this present EVF lag by 80% which I assume is doable in effect it will become a nonissue to 99.5% of people. Can't please everyone.

My guess is in a few years this issue - which is a legitimate issue to some - becomes a nonissue except for very very few people.

Sony not in the business of building cameras for the very very few people.
Argonaut
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Re: a55 EVF questions

Unread post by Argonaut »

What I don't understand, and please someone direct me to information if I have missed it, is WHY there is an EVF delay? The EVFs in video cameras have no noticeable delay - and how could they, especially for professionals? So, why (technically) does it exist in the a55? Is it a chip problem or a software problem? If it's software, can it be fixed with an update, as the noise reduction in the a700 was?
agorabasta
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Re: a55 EVF questions

Unread post by agorabasta »

Human beings always see the delayed image of reality. The delay is normally around 40ms, but with some training and concentration on a very small area one may improve to about 15ms delay. Then there's yet another delay to take any action, that's larger - above 100ms.

The current a55 EVF is not good enough for a well trained eye-brain, at 60Hz refresh the total delay is about 17+17ms. But the EVFs are expected to improve quite soon. I'd expect that as soon as with the next Sony EVF SLT.
stevecim
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Re: a55 EVF questions

Unread post by stevecim »

Has anyone here used a A33/55 at an air show? I know with my old Pana FZ10 it was impossible to track fast moving jets they just never appeared in the EVF :)
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