Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

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Almazar80
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by Almazar80 »

I think the NEX sales have (or will soon match) SLT sales. Now, if Sony came out with the mirrorless A mount, that would be great (and I think they will, just waiting for technology that will allow this to happen and let us use existing A mount lenses). I have the feeling that Sony sold quite a few A57s and the A58, if it is indeed sold at $599 (with lens), will be compelling for many people. At the reduced price, the A77 probably sold in higher numbers. I'd like a D600 A mount competitor more than a full frame mirrorless NEX.
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by agorabasta »

Greg Beetham wrote:Just because a camera has a flange bayonet fishplate made of plastic doesn’t really qualify it as a plastic mount to the same degree as the replacement of the entire thing with plastic....
Sorry, Greg, but it does, and especially so considering the 'historical' aspect.

The a55 had all but the frontplate ring made of plastic. It was bad, that piece of metal was too weak easily bending/deforming from screw tightening. The mount was too flaky to withstand heavier lenses over time. And now we're offered an all-plastic mount. No, thanks!
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Greg Beetham
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

mixxer wrote:
bakubo wrote:
mixxer wrote:Although I'm not overly impressed with the plastic mount either, it does at least appear to be a replacable component and therefore shouldn't compromise the longevity of the camera to any degree.
I wonder how much Sony charges to change the plastic lens mount in a camera? I think their repair and part prices are generally pretty high, aren't they?

I get your point but they should be easy enough for owners to replace and you never know, cheap copies might become available on ebay. 8)
And the lens, sometimes lenses don’t fare all that well after hitting the deck. I guess it depends what they fall onto, concrete or rock would be the worst. So the quote from Sony should include the cost of a new lens, it just depends what lens it was as too how expensive that would be.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

I can only comment using the partial plastic mounts (which had a metal face) but plastic tabs.
I have used many of these mounts as present on the 35mm bodies and Km5d/A200 etc etc

Over time I noted that lenses were not fitting as tightly as they do with the film 7 (all metal mount) Whilst I have not had any major problems I don't believe the semi plastic mount was the way forward and that Sony should have moved the entire range to fully metal mounts (as per everyone else Canon/Nikon/Pentax)

I have come across and use some all plastic mounts and I feel they are even less durable than the mounts with plastic tabs, and noted some of them were prone to marks/scratches/grooves when used with metal mount lenses (ie almost all my lenses are metal mount) Sony have taken the exact opposite of what was required, ie should have gone fully metal and now they've gone fully plastic.

I can't see the move going down well for current or new buyers (I would not accept an all plastic mount on anything bar a £199 camera even then I would avoid it and happily pay more) If Sony are ok about being perceived as a tight brand who will cut corners to save a few pennies that's up to them. I think it's very ill advised myself. Same reason I am not a fan of the plastic sauce tray for a kit lens, or the no hot shoe cover, or the cheap strap they bundle with their cameras. First impressions count and Sony come off pretty cheap and nasty in some respects (A57 bundle has an awful poor quality printed manual too)

I know why they do it, Sony count out the numbers and if they save £3 skimping on a few bits here and there x 100k camera bundles they will pat themselves on the back for saving £300,000 in costs. I think it does more harm than good, and one reason why Sony IMO are struggling against other makers in electronics, the build quality of their products isn't a patch on what it used to be over a decade ago.
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KevinBarrett
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by KevinBarrett »

Is a plastic mount instead of a metal mount disappointing? You betcha. It's a cost-cutting move (if a very questionable one) on a highly visible piece of the hardware.

Is a plastic mount a deal-breaker? Not as much as the color tearing on the old LCD EVF.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

I disagree l don't view cameras as short term purchase they are not disposable. The LCD EVF is adequate though it could be better. I doubt many would be willing to upgrade to the OLED VF at the expense of build quality.

Looking at the Dyxum thread it's quite clear that the poster who has a camera (despite it not being for sale) is a Sony plant on the forum (beta tester/works for Sony whatever same thing) So I can't really take them that seriously either
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by mixxer »

I get your point but they should be easy enough for owners to replace and you never know, cheap copies might become available on ebay. 8)
And the lens, sometimes lenses don’t fare all that well after hitting the deck. I guess it depends what they fall onto, concrete or rock would be the worst. So the quote from Sony should include the cost of a new lens, it just depends what lens it was as too how expensive that would be.
Greg[/quote]

Lenses wouldn't fall off due to the A58's new plastic interface. They could however fall off if the plastic flanges break but these have been used on the A33/37, A55/57 and the A65 without any complaints that I'm aware of. A bulletproof mount made of titanium or whatever would only be as strong as the plastic body holding it anyway and that is why manufacturers (including Sony) make cameras with metal chassis and mounts for professionals who may be using heavy professional standard lenses and changing them on a frequent basis.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that this is a fairly petty cost cutting exercise by Sony but I don't believe it's an issue to get too worked up over. From what I've seen so far, the A58 is capable of excellent photographs for a budget price and if subsequent tests confirm this it should be commended as such. I have an A57 and sure, it has a few handling issues but ultimately it produces excellent images and that's all I'm bothered about. I could buy a used A700 but although I'd have a better built body, the images wouldn't be so good and that fact is reflected in the prices the A700 commands on ebay etc.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

I'm not getting worked up over it, simply saying Sony are the only maker to use an all plastic mount on a DSLR ever (that I am aware of) we had some super cheap 35mm film bodies with plastic mounts (from all makers) but this is a first from where I am standing.

Whether you agree durability might be an issue or not (plastic flanges noted but let's be real an all plastic mount is a real step back) the real damage is customer perception. Imagine xyz buyer goes to pick this up and is less than impressed when they see their pals with metal mount DSLR and their plastic one. I think it's a real sales killer for Sony and I can see folks avoiding this model just on the mount and cut down LCD (another problem at this price point 2.7" half the res of the A57 not a good move either)

A700 is the price it is because it's 5 years old you will find similar (though again capable enough cameras) from other makers that age selling s/h for not a lot.
Sony missed a real chance to update the A57 and sort out some handling issues and other areas (such as offer a grip)
Basic marketing is new=better=people buy it. Not new= cheaper and more cut down= not buy it

I don't expect the A58 to be for sale for long I think it will bomb sales wise and Sony will have to re-think that strategy
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by mixxer »

I don't believe anyone who buys an A58 without researching enough to discover it has a plastic mount beforehand will even bother to remove the kit lens other than to have a curious look inside and put fingerprints on the mirror.

As a long term enthusiast, my heart yearns for a modern A700 with an articulated screen. Built like a tank and with buttons rather than menus they are a delight to use. However, such a camera would retail at around £1000 so my head says why not buy 2 gadget-like A57s (or A58s) for the same money and share the workload between their flimsier bodies and always have cover if one fails. Picture quality is what matters and a 'photographers' camera won't outperform a 'gadget' camera if they're both using the same sensors and lenses.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

We shall see on what buyers think but I suspect the impact of the plastic mount will have far more consequences than it might appear at first. Saying most users won't even change the kit lens doesn't really cut it for me, I know many users who would be bothered about this move.

Canon users would riot if they put a plastic mount on one of their cameras (they won't because Canon know it would not save money only cost sales)

I'll give an example of why Sony "just don't get it" in one obvious way. They offer no VG option for the A57/65 (and now A58 body is slightly smaller too) yet I detect from users the desire to have a choice of a VG. But previous grips from Sony in the A200-350 and A500/550 were pricey for these cameras near £200 odd for a plastic grip.

Sony sat down and probably said "we didn't sell many grips so let's not bother" (despite the fact they could have made a grip for A57/65 users same body design)
The real issue was Sony mistakenly thinks they can charge £200 odd for a grip for cameras that cost £500 or around there. You might sell £200+ grips for £1000 cameras, but it is obvious to most that it's not a price most would pay.

Meanwhile Canon have their BG-E8 Battery Grip for EOS 550D/600D/650D (note it fits a number of models not just one line for one year) They sell it for just over £100 odd, acceptable to most for that type of camera. And Canon sell quite a few of these grips (I know I see them around frequently)

So instead of Sony thinking wow lets make a grip for £100 ish (or near there) for A57/65 users (let's be honest you can make a nice margin on moulded plastic) Sony decide to not bother with a grip at all. Thus annoying many users (who want a grip) and failing to meet the needs of their buyers. Sony are too greedy to understand they could turn a nice profit on grips if they offered them and at a reasonable price (or a perceived reasonable price) Meanwhile Canon are happily selling lots of grips and body updates to people (who can re-use their grip too) and making more profit, plus keeping the customer happy (if you want one you can buy one if not don't choice is good) I would also add Nikon mistakenly don't offer grips for their D5xxx range (despite demand for them)

That is just one example of where Sony "just don't get it" a simple one but it illustrates the flawed thinking of the company and worse not addressing the needs of their users. If they have not learnt this basic stuff by now they never really will.
Personally I would get a grip for the A57 (but only if they carried the design to work with updated bodies) if it were priced at sensible levels.

The Alpha team don't really understand the needs of buyers or what they want, that's why Sony's market share is so low.
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Greg Beetham
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

mixxer wrote:
I get your point but they should be easy enough for owners to replace and you never know, cheap copies might become available on ebay. 8)
And the lens, sometimes lenses don’t fare all that well after hitting the deck. I guess it depends what they fall onto, concrete or rock would be the worst. So the quote from Sony should include the cost of a new lens, it just depends what lens it was as too how expensive that would be.
Greg
Lenses wouldn't fall off due to the A58's new plastic interface. They could however fall off if the plastic flanges break but these have been used on the A33/37, A55/57 and the A65 without any complaints that I'm aware of. A bulletproof mount made of titanium or whatever would only be as strong as the plastic body holding it anyway and that is why manufacturers (including Sony) make cameras with metal chassis and mounts for professionals who may be using heavy professional standard lenses and changing them on a frequent basis.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that this is a fairly petty cost cutting exercise by Sony but I don't believe it's an issue to get too worked up over. From what I've seen so far, the A58 is capable of excellent photographs for a budget price and if subsequent tests confirm this it should be commended as such. I have an A57 and sure, it has a few handling issues but ultimately it produces excellent images and that's all I'm bothered about. I could buy a used A700 but although I'd have a better built body, the images wouldn't be so good and that fact is reflected in the prices the A700 commands on ebay etc.[/quote]

I can only conclude you didn’t read what I wrote properly or you didn’t absorb the implications.
No lenses won’t fall off, not right away they won’t, what I said before is not implausible I’ve seen many cases of plastic structural failure where screw fasteners under compression loads are involved. What I’m talking about is probably not going to happen for a year or even two but there is a chance of it happening at some stage, it’s much more likely with an all plastic mount than with a mount that has metal disk under the counter sunk screws that will act as a retainer. (The screw heads will not pull through the metal the screws will have to pull out of the body instead, or the plastic bayonet flanges break on the lens or the body under impact, but I’m not talking about impact damage as a prime cause of failure)
A possible fail point with screws in plastic is the swaging of the plastic as the self-thread cutting screws were originally installed into it, the load that that thread can be torqued up to until strip out failure is something unknown in either case but it is something that can and does fail if the load is constant and the occasional peak attachment loading reaches the tensile strength limit of the plastic itself, or the screws have been torqued beyond the strip out point.
Failure can occur in two more ways the mirror box boss for each screw can split at some point due to incorrect clearance in the original design of the hole size vs. screw gauge/thread/height (or incorrect screw) combined with the structural strength of the plastic, the result is the screw no longer has the pre-torque to withstand normal loads and pulls out.
Or as I mentioned before the screw heads can compress the plastic mount directly underneath them and over time they need to be re-tensioned, that is a sure sign that plastic compression has taken place, it also could mean that the new plastic mount having no metal retainer could fail under load (momentary load within the original design limit that includes an approximate 100% safety margin) at some future point….a point unknown, but after it has been in service for some time are you willing to risk an expensive and maybe heavy lens dangling from it as you walk around with the camera?
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by mixxer »

Greg

Your conclusion is incorrect for either scenario.
As you took the trouble to mention, there are several possibilities for failure but none of them would be directly caused by the plastic interface of the A58 which is the topic of this thread. Yes, screws can and will compress a plastic interface but no more so than they will the plastic body into which they have been screwed. As I have already intimated, there is littleo point in engineering a 'bombproof' lens mount if it going to be attached to a plastic body and that is why manufacturers make metal bodied/metal mount cameras for professional use. I wouldn't trust heavy, expensive lenses to plastic bodied cameras, metal mount or not.
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by agorabasta »

mixxer wrote:Yes, screws can and will compress a plastic interface but no more so than they will the plastic body into which they have been screwed.
That deformation must be at least twice as large if the front ring is made of the same kind of plastic as the rest parts of the mount.
And it's really possible to have a plastic mount made so that it really is effectively more durable/strong than a metal one. But such a plastic design is much more expensive than a full-metal one at the current tech state.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

mixxer wrote:Greg

Your conclusion is incorrect for either scenario.
As you took the trouble to mention, there are several possibilities for failure but none of them would be directly caused by the plastic interface of the A58 which is the topic of this thread. Yes, screws can and will compress a plastic interface but no more so than they will the plastic body into which they have been screwed. As I have already intimated, there is littleo point in engineering a 'bombproof' lens mount if it going to be attached to a plastic body and that is why manufacturers make metal bodied/metal mount cameras for professional use. I wouldn't trust heavy, expensive lenses to plastic bodied cameras, metal mount or not.

No camera maker does not offer a full metal mount (regardless of price) on their SLR range even the budget stuff from Canon, Nikon and Pentax every body not just "pro bodies"

It's quite simple metal mount lenses on plastic mount = wear. Really quite simple and very obvious
Even if you dismiss all that (and I've used and seen plastic mounts that were quite loose with lenses fitted, not fall off loose but too much play for comfort) It's never a good idea to cheap out when your competitors don't. It just makes your product look worse v other offerings.

Yes it is a big deal because this is Sony's penny pinching taken to new lows and nobody can really argue otherwise. There are no advantages to the plastic mount, only disadvantages and the savings are so tiny as to be not worth bothering with. The plastic tabs/flanges were not ideal again wear was an issue, going full plastic is even worse really unnecessary move short term thinking that damages Sony's potential sales.
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by mixxer »

bfitzgerald wrote:
mixxer wrote:Greg

Your conclusion is incorrect for either scenario.
As you took the trouble to mention, there are several possibilities for failure but none of them would be directly caused by the plastic interface of the A58 which is the topic of this thread. Yes, screws can and will compress a plastic interface but no more so than they will the plastic body into which they have been screwed. As I have already intimated, there is littleo point in engineering a 'bombproof' lens mount if it going to be attached to a plastic body and that is why manufacturers make metal bodied/metal mount cameras for professional use. I wouldn't trust heavy, expensive lenses to plastic bodied cameras, metal mount or not.

No camera maker does not offer a full metal mount (regardless of price) on their SLR range even the budget stuff from Canon, Nikon and Pentax every body not just "pro bodies"

It's quite simple metal mount lenses on plastic mount = wear. Really quite simple and very obvious
Even if you dismiss all that (and I've used and seen plastic mounts that were quite loose with lenses fitted, not fall off loose but too much play for comfort) It's never a good idea to cheap out when your competitors don't. It just makes your product look worse v other offerings.

Yes it is a big deal because this is Sony's penny pinching taken to new lows and nobody can really argue otherwise. There are no advantages to the plastic mount, only disadvantages and the savings are so tiny as to be not worth bothering with. The plastic tabs/flanges were not ideal again wear was an issue, going full plastic is even worse really unnecessary move short term thinking that damages Sony's potential sales.
But, for the models lower in their respective ranges, those metal mounts are attached to plastic bodies rendering them unsuitable for extensive use with heavy lenses anyway. As for wear, true a plastic lens mount has probably lower durability than a metal mount but what are the perceived lifespans for these cameras? Most have a projected shutter actuation limit of 100,000 or less. I mentioned the A700 earlier. It's a well built piece of kit but here we are 5 years from it's launch and people are selling them for a fraction of their new price for newer models including the "inferior" A57's etc because the new stuff simply give better quality images. Five years from now, the A58's et al will also be little more than museum pieces. The question is, why be so concerned about longevity issues (real or imagined) for a camera which will be replaced almost certainly by choice rather than necessity within five years?

As for Sony losing sales over this... that's something for them to mull over, I don't think I'll be losing any sleep over it.
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