Mirrorless rumours

[Greg Beetham]

Didn’t Sony try to get A-mount screw drive working on the NEX with an adaptor Mk 1 and it wouldn’t work worth a damn, (very slow) and then they brought the Mk 2 adaptor out with the SLT mirror and then it worked ok (with screw drive), or have I got that wrong?
I don’t really follow NEX evolution very closely so I could be wrong about some part of it.
Greg

[bfitzgerald]

Hey Greg check this out!

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/06/20 ... -3G-4G-LTE

Maybe this is the "future" for bad camera design. Hardly any real buttons buttons, touchscreen shoved into a DSLR type mirror less body!
Now you can play "angry birds" whilst you are out with your camera

It's almost an "anti Dynax 7" design, guess what if this is the future, they can keep it. I surely hope Sony don't try to pull something like that off

[Greg Beetham]

Yeah an android thingy, won’t that be swell, It’ll probably sell ok but not too me. It looks like there is about to be a real one here very soon with one kit lens available. http://www.samsung.com/au/consumer/came ... -accessory
Greg

[agorabasta]

Didn’t Sony try to get A-mount screw drive working on the NEX with an adaptor Mk 1 and it wouldn’t work worth a damn, (very slow) and then they brought the Mk 2 adaptor out with the SLT mirror and then it worked ok (with screw drive), or have I got that wrong?

The LA-EA1 had no screwdriver, did slow AF with SSM/SAM lenses using CDAF only. The CDAF was very slow partly due to the motors type, but mostly due to trying to focus with the lens wide open. CDAF would be much faster if the lens were stopped down for greater DoF.

The LA-EA2 had its own PDAF sensors and a screwdriver. The body has nothing to do with focusing in that case.

Then came the 5R and the 6 that had the PDAF stripes on the main sensor. Their PDAF works (together with CDAF) only with some of the native e-mount lenses, not even with all of them. It doesn't work with adapted lenses.

Now what should be expected in the newer Nex bodies, is a full implementation of PDAF that must work just as fast as some regular DSLR AF. But in the case of Nex there may be some limitations as certain older lenses were never designed for pure PDAF operation.

The possible light and/or resolution loss due to main sensor PDAF really are near-completely non-existent. I could only discern some beat at the positions of the PDAF stripes when shooting fine regular patterns specifically trying to provoke the effect. Even a slight change in the spacial frequency of the pattern completely masks the stripes. (I was shooting an LCD screen with a Nex6 at varying magnifications using sharpest lenses available to me.)
Furthermore, it's possible to have all the sensor sensels work as PDAF one, just optimise half of them to look more to one side with the other half looking more to other side. That would also even out the corner shading of the present regular digital sensors.

[Atgets_Apprentice]

Yeah an android thingy, won’t that be swell, It’ll probably sell ok but not too me. It looks like there is about to be a real one here very soon with one kit lens available. http://www.samsung.com/au/consumer/came ... -accessory
Greg

At the price quoted by WEX, I don't think it will be a BIG seller:

http://www.wexphotographic.com/?/latest ... msung.html

[Greg Beetham]

Didn’t Sony try to get A-mount screw drive working on the NEX with an adaptor Mk 1 and it wouldn’t work worth a damn, (very slow) and then they brought the Mk 2 adaptor out with the SLT mirror and then it worked ok (with screw drive), or have I got that wrong?

The LA-EA1 had no screwdriver, did slow AF with SSM/SAM lenses using CDAF only. The CDAF was very slow partly due to the motors type, but mostly due to trying to focus with the lens wide open. CDAF would be much faster if the lens were stopped down for greater DoF.

The LA-EA2 had its own PDAF sensors and a screwdriver. The body has nothing to do with focusing in that case.

Then came the 5R and the 6 that had the PDAF stripes on the main sensor. Their PDAF works (together with CDAF) only with some of the native e-mount lenses, not even with all of them. It doesn't work with adapted lenses.

Now what should be expected in the newer Nex bodies, is a full implementation of PDAF that must work just as fast as some regular DSLR AF. But in the case of Nex there may be some limitations as certain older lenses were never designed for pure PDAF operation.

The possible light and/or resolution loss due to main sensor PDAF really are near-completely non-existent. I could only discern some beat at the positions of the PDAF stripes when shooting fine regular patterns specifically trying to provoke the effect. Even a slight change in the spacial frequency of the pattern completely masks the stripes. (I was shooting an LCD screen with a Nex6 at varying magnifications using sharpest lenses available to me.)
Furthermore, it's possible to have all the sensor sensels work as PDAF one, just optimise half of them to look more to one side with the other half looking more to other side. That would also even out the corner shading of the present regular digital sensors.

Thanks for the clarification agorabasta but the focus initialize command comes from the body (shutter button) and the body accepts the focus complete signal so there is ‘traffic’ between the body, adaptor and lens.
I’m not sure where the calculations for the number of steps (clockwise-anticlockwise-execute) for the AF stepper motor comes from but probably from a processor in the body where the power comes from, normally that is.
And then there is the focus position encoder that has its own communication feedback line, also the lens ROM ID chip supplies its data to the body (on a regular A-mount body for SSS/flash calculations) as well.
Some of that won’t serve any purpose on a NEX of course.
I’d expect all of the above to work properly on any new A-mount body using A-mount lenses whether it’s mirror-less or otherwise.

I read somewhere (forget where) that the missing pixels are accounted for by ‘inventing’ the missing parts of the image calculated by substitution of the colour registered by the sensels next to the ones not used for forming the image. I guess that doesn’t matter much because as time goes on and newer sensors and cameras are produced depicting reality seems to have become a rather vague concept by not only the ones that use them but the ones that design them also.

I have no idea if the missing sensels amount to the claimed 30% light loss or not but I would have to imagine that a photon falling on a sensel not used for forming the image is a photon lost, whatever the quantity.
I would have thought that 30% was too much myself but I have no way of checking or measuring it even if I had a camera with on sensor PDAF-CDAF, maybe they were including the sensels used for exposure metering as well, who knows.

Even if you used the same lens and took the same photo on both types of camera (with on sensor focus and without) how would that prove anything either? The camera ‘with’ would be setup to expose the same as the one ‘without’ so you would be none the wiser about the light loss difference except maybe at high ISO but even there later model sensors are generally better at high ISO so that would tend to mask the disadvantage, it’s a tough one to get a definitive answer too.
Unless Nikon order the same or very similar model sensor without the on sensor focusing there won’t be a way to compare one version with another in any meaningful way.
Greg

[Greg Beetham]

Yeah an android thingy, won’t that be swell, It’ll probably sell ok but not too me. It looks like there is about to be a real one here very soon with one kit lens available. http://www.samsung.com/au/consumer/came ... -accessory
Greg

At the price quoted by WEX, I don't think it will be a BIG seller:

http://www.wexphotographic.com/?/latest ... msung.html

I take that back, they must be kidding.
Greg

[bfitzgerald]

I got that email from WEX too, frankly that's an insane price. I'd have expected it to cost less than half that.
Samsung can only really shift their ILC range when they blow out prices to ultra low levels (like the NX1000 black version selling evidently quite well for an ultra low £245 with a kit lens) I'd have no problems with folks buying one it's barely more than a half decent compact camera, warts and all fire away! NX-20 evidently not doing that well (priced at DSLR levels over £400)
This new Android thing..well we're up to FF prices near enough!

Instant fail, even with a big price cut I'm just not seeing it. Samsung are the "budget boy" of cameras, and they have to accept that in this market. They might do ok with their TV's, galaxy tablets and phones, but this is camera land and they have a lot less punch here.

[agorabasta]

Furthermore, it's possible to have all the sensor sensels work as PDAF one, just optimise half of them to look more to one side with the other half looking more to other side. That would also even out the corner shading of the present regular digital sensors.

Well, now we do not have to wait for Sony to show us the on-sensor PDAF magic.

Now that Canon has actually made exactly what I've been imagining for quite a few months already, we may rest assured that the mirrorless future is guaranteed. But the former Sony mirrorless lead is the thing of the past.

[bfitzgerald]

It remains to be seen where Canon go with this, it does not necessarily mean a mirror less DSLR type camera turning up shortly.
So far the top 2 makers have not followed Sony's EVF take "yet" and I'm not sure they will either. If they do you can be certain it won't be FF or high end APS-C, I'd look for an entry model turning up, if one does that will be where it will show first.

[agorabasta]

Barry, Canon already has a (very anaemic) mirrorless system. That's not going to stay anaemic.

Also that very 70D already is a good mirrorless system - just use it in LV with full-time PDAF. The mirror with the OVF would be just some redundant bolt-ons for many if not most younger users.

[classiccameras]

It would be interesting to see if the new Canon 70D tech such as the 20mp sensor cascades down to future entry/enthusiasts DSLR's.

I love this, read it in a very old established photo mag.

"It time these DSLR makers stopped 'tackin' on gimmicky video facilities which are way from perfect yet, to cameras that are first and foremost designed for stills. Its unneceassary technology and cost which possibly compromises stills performance".

Make your own mind up.

[Atgets_Apprentice]

I think it's great that Canon, a brand I have no great liking for, have beaten Sony to the punch with PDAF, AND done it without ditching the mirror and OVF. Maybe Canon remembers the less than successful pellicle mirror cameras of their past, and doesn't see any great future in such technology.

If, however, the 70D was within my price bracket, on paper, at least, it looks like a camera I could be tempted by, something that none of the current Sony range does.

[bfitzgerald]

Subject to more sensible prices the 70d could be work a look. D7100 is creeping down to the £799 mark and no doubt will hit a lower price over time too, price dropped fast on that body very fast. The days of a crop sensor body selling for £1000+ are probably over IMO bar a pro level body.
I don't take Canon's EOS M range that seriously, in the same way I don't for all the makers (Bar Fuji's X which has potential but it's not there yet) Had they done something similar to the G series with a lens change I would have taken more notice of it.

I suspect Nikon will try to follow this phase detect on sensor plan.
Regarding the video aspect I partly blame sites like DPR constantly beating on about video buttons and junk like that. It's really not that important for most users and we couldn't care less. Sadly in the same way the nasty focus by wire and power zoom has made a return, inferior for stills shooters and not wanted at all.

The advantage of the 70d is you have a choice, the OVF or using a live feed off the back LCD with we assume decent and fast phase detect AF. Today is a bright day where I am, and the problems with EVF's are plain to see in this light, it's just impossible to see properly in the shadow areas. Whilst I'm ok using the EVF inside, there are times I just need to see the subject clearly. I'm still of the view that the across the board SLT experiment was a mistake from Sony.

Next year I don't hold out much hope of things changing, they may abandon the SLT aspect, but will probably overprice the new models and again tempt users to other systems.

[classiccameras]

A lot of review sites are naming Panasonic G series cameras with EVF as the ones to beat. I'm not a huge fan of M4thirds sensors, but they are a neat, small, light and give excellent performance. The lens range now is pretty good and a few Pros have moved over to them.
I think my A37 gives me all I want and I am more than pleased with its IQ and performance and its easier to use than my old Nikon D5100. For me it would not make sense to move away from that to a bigger and heavier DSLR.