SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Specifically for the discussion of the A-mount DSLR range
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bakubo
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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread post by bakubo »

bfitzgerald wrote:I think the problem is A mount has not received the attention and development it should have. Sony have been in charge for 8 years, yet have had quite mixed results by changing direction too often, failing to observe even the most basic rules of the game, such as updating models in a timely fashion (before discontinuing older models)


Get enough funding and maybe Sony will sell you the rights to the A-mount. Wouldn't that be cool to show Sony how successful a Dynax/Maxxum 7-like digital body with a sensor that produces files that look like color negative film, no video, high quality, low price, etc. would be? They would be kicking themselves for missing the obvious. It would sort of be like IBM getting hoodwinked by Bill Gates and letting him keep MS-DOS or Xerox showing Steve Jobs all their confidential graphical stuff. :)
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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

Sony paid 72 million USD for the KM body div. so they probably would want something like that for it, or perhaps they might discount a bit, these days with the camera industry the way it is and the declining A-mount market share it’s a definite possibility, you might get it for 50 mill now.
With the cost of labour in the UK as against the cost of labour in Thailand etc. it would be financial suicide to start up a camera industry there that would have to compete with the established brands. It would not only involve building competitive bodies it would also need an optical division and that’s where the whole idea stops dead in its tracks. a new startup optical works in the West would have zero chance of competing with the Asian optical industry.
Not to mention sourcing or making various components like processors and IC’s and then you have to have programmers compile the firmware, I guess you could use Linux like Sony and ask the community to help out…maybe.
Also I know that to make a sensor you have to first build a fab and one of those can cost billions of money.
I see Renesas is for sale, http://www.analog-eetimes.com/en/sony-e ... =222906006 maybe we could all chip in and buy that before Sony does.
I know you are just having a dig Henry, with the camera idea, but first it has to be a remotely feasible idea, there would be nil financial backing for it in the west, unless Bill or Donald could get interested in the idea maybe, it could be nifty tax lurk where they could invest in a sure fire loser as an offset on their next tax return.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

It's easy to have a go at me for being a bar stool critic, but I think we all know Sony's position with A Mount has been on the slide for a while now. It's not that shocking being honest, after my service nightmare...and having to drag Sony's name across facebook just to get my problems sorted (to at least some degree), it was quite obvious during that communication with Sony that the people working there are very much out of the loop, they're not well organised at all (putting it bluntly). If they can't even deal with a service issue, it's not shocking they have problems with a coherent strategy for A mount.

I don't know what it is, maybe the new CEO decided to fire off on a different angle, put most of the eggs in the E mount basket. I just find it a bit sad that's all.

And after reading the surprisingly critical review by DPR of the A7, it seems the ghosts of Christmas past are still haunting Sony to this day including the long running mushy jpeg problem. I was quite shocked to see DPR actually throw a few punches (maybe the reviewers?) poor battery life, no charger (real penny pinching here from Sony), no built in flash.

Simple things seem to trip Sony up. I'm used to living with quirks and annoyances on the A57. It's just Sony never seem to actually get around to solving these problems (ie listening).
I just view their products as a place to put my mostly third party gear onto lenses and flashes wise. I don't think anyone could with confidence say right now A mount is a good place to start dumping a big cash investment. I'm only thankful that even if things go wobbly longer term I don't have lots of exotic glass to take a big resale hit on.

Maybe things won't be as bad as I think, maybe Sony will actually start to be consistent and listen to users. I've just felt for a long time the company is almost oblivious to the market, their users and what's going on in the industry as a whole.
Last edited by bfitzgerald on Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
classiccameras
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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread post by classiccameras »

Barry, you should have CC'd this post to Sony.
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Birma
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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread post by Birma »

I wouldn't be surprised if Sony moved all future releases of A mount bodies to the 7, 8 and 9 ranges. I see this as a general market move away from the mirror box. Canikon releases continue to be pedestrian, small step, changes. I think the most interesting things they have done in the last couple of years are the cheap(er) FF cameras, and Canon's on-sensor focusing. Canon's on-sensor focusing sort of points the way. The mirror box / AF combi is losing its reason to be. Cheaper FF? Well, Sony just trumped that.

The 'bigger is better' paradigm is still powerful among those looking to get a 'serious' camera, but I think its days are numbered as more and more of those that people aspire to emulate move to smaller (mirror-less) kit.
Nex 5, Nex 6 (IR), A7M2, A99 and a bunch of lenses.
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Greg Beetham
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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

I think Nikon and Canon sell because they have a comprehensive system that works as a system properly and people can buy those brands with confidence.
There is always something new being developed by other brands to carve out a niche on the edge of those two, sometimes there is something promising that could make inroads but to be successful it better have all the i’s dotted and t’s crossed, a camera with oddball interface glitches isn’t going to cut it.
Mirrorless seems to be gaining some converts, Fuji and Oly have their user base but I’m not sure they rock the boat all that much, they have popularity because of the small factor for hiking and travel but I have a suspicion there are a quite a few used as second systems, the DSLR is still king at some things.
When I see an A7 on the sideline among battle lens row that’s the day I’ll admit mirrorless might have caught up. (I’m safe, not going to happen)
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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread post by peterottaway »

I suggest that you go to Thom Hogans site an look at his comments about Nikon.
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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

Yah I heard that Thom has a bee in his bonnet about Nikon lately, I think the Exxon Valdez stuff on the D600 sensor went over like a lead balloon, probably not so much the ‘stuff’ but Nikon’s response to it sort of got up the kilt a bit. I heard there was some lawyer in the US starting up a class action against Nikon, I don’t know how that will pan out.
But anyway if you want a sludge free sensor you can always buy the new improved D610 model, problem fixed, what’s the next problem? (the D600 buyers are just borne complainers, they should have got a D800 instead of the el-cheapo D600) :lol:
Realistically the whole thing is a disaster for Nikon, they handled it badly, and it shows in their sales now, but they still have a system that Sony should aspire to emulate (sludge free of course).
Greg
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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread post by mikeriach »

Having used my A99 on a dark evening with some scattered flood lights, I have to say it held its own against the other cameras.
Tilt/swivel screen, excellent live view, low (or manageable) noise, 2second delay option, useful EVF (can still see the object even in the low light).
All useful features my fellow shooters were admiring. There were Canon users with 1DX, 5Dmk2, 60D plus Nikon D7000 and D90.
Being able to shoot with the camera almost on the ground but me simply kneeling looking down at the tilted screen had the 1DX user frowning as he had to lie belly down on the freezing tarmac to get the same shot :)
I shot between ISO 100 and 1600 and the noise was great even on the 1600 shot in extreme low light (2 second @ f4.5). Some moderate noise reduction in LR and I could still sharpen without getting intrusive noise levels.
I'm pretty happy with my lot at the moment but that's not to say that I think it is perfect. There is still a lot for Sony to do and listening to the feedback would be a good start.
The one thing from Tuesday night would be a SSS switch as per early Sonys - not a burried menu option (a pain in the £%*& when on and off a tripod all night).

To be fair I also took my A77 but didn't use it though the focal length options would have been better, 16-80 crop sensor as opposed to 28-75 on full frame. I looked at the FF Canon boys with their 24-105 f4 with a high degree of envy.

Mike
All my Sony SLT gear gone. Still got my RX100 though.
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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread post by bakubo »

For Barry and others: I don't know about the U.K. price, but I see that the A77 is now selling for $798 in the U.S.. Less for used ones. Seems like an excellent price and a good time to buy one. Good luck.
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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread post by bakubo »

Greg Beetham wrote:Sony paid 72 million USD for the KM body div. so they probably would want something like that for it, or perhaps they might discount a bit, these days with the camera industry the way it is and the declining A-mount market share it’s a definite possibility, you might get it for 50 mill now.


Actually, I think one could probably leave Sony completely out of this and not pay them anything. Do people who make lenses, adapters, etc. that use the A-mount have to pay Sony to do that? Does Sigma pay Sony? Do the makers of adapters pay Sony? I don't know the answer. If you don't use the Sony name and don't steal their tech then I suspect you could make cameras and lenses that use the A-mount. Aren't there some Chinese and Russian cameras that use Nikon, Leica, etc. mounts? Ignore Sony, don't buy anything from them. Hell, why would anyone in their right mind who wants to make the cameras Sony should be making for the prices Sony should be selling them for want anything from Sony? Anything from Sony would just contaminate the results. :lol:
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bfitzgerald
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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Evidently the Metz guy I spoke to told me that they licence the hot shoe design off of Sony. I'm not sure what the arrangements are in terms of third party lens makers and others.

Yes the A77 is around £599 right now, I'm sure it will be around for a few months and that's not a bad price. Problem still remains once it's gone, you are left with a £1000+ body and a £300 one, if anyone can't spot that as a problem then I'll start smoking something myself ;-) You can't have a gap like that it's a sale killer.

As for Thom Hogan he has been throwing some harder punches at Nikon, and I think mostly deserved with the D600 and other QC issues fiasco. They really pulled a fast one on their customers there. I also note Thom has a commentary on the Canikon dominance and pokes some fun at Sony's previous bold claims about market share...

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/bcn ... arket.html

So when are Sony going to stop dancing around the ring, and actually land some heavy blows?
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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread post by alphaomega »

And after reading the surprisingly critical review by DPR of the A7, it seems the ghosts of Christmas past are still haunting Sony to this day including the long running mushy jpeg problem. I was quite shocked to see DPR actually throw a few punches (maybe the reviewers?) poor battery life, no charger (real penny pinching here from Sony), no built in flash.

Barry Fitzgerald should have a look at this particular piece in SAR

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/soundima ... nclusions/
2) Dpreview says: “JPEG quality disappointing compared to peers – crude sharpening, over-aggressive processing and occasional posterization.” and “The areas that need the most improvement are related to JPEG image quality. While we recognize that some a7 shooters will be using Raw exclusively, those who are shooting JPEGs will see smudged details and strange artifacts, which are amplified if you edit and re-save them.”

SoundimagesPlus answer: “Quite simply having minutely examined the jpgs. from my A7 and A7r, I have no idea what they are writing about. Plus they give an example from one of their test shots, which try as I might I just cannot see. In fact I take the complete opposite position to them. I think the jpgs. from these two cameras are the best I’ve ever seen“

SAR note: I am not a professional reviewer. But from my short experience with the Sony A7-A7r JPEG engine is quite a lot better than the NEX-7 engine (I owned the camera before). And I see no major difference with the Nikon D800 shots (my company owns the camera and I did some basic testings with it). That said other reviewers wrote exactly the opposite of Dpreview claiming the Sony JPEG look quite goo. Example: DSLRmagazine (google translated article), Focus Numerique (google translation here) or Cameralabs: “the out-of-camera JPEGs from the A7 looked comfortably superior to the 5D3. In the 20-24 Megapixel class, I’d say the A7 is an excellent performer.“.

Clearly there is not universal agreement that Sony's Jpegs are mushy. Personnally I find the Sony Jpegs from NEX-6/RX100 excellent and mostly usable with little manipulation.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

People need to look at "NR set to the lower possible setting"
It's here where (to date) I've found Sony quite poor on jpegs.

I can't sing the praises of Pentax and Nikon based on my own problems with those makers, but I have to say Jpeg wise NR set to off they blew anything I've used A mount wise out of the water. I've looked at DPR's examples and I can't see anything wrong with the jpeg specific points they've made. They have examples of some problems

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-alpha-a7/13

If you look at the other section with the jpeg and high ISO settings you can see problems on the A99 and A7, crude patches appearing showing sharpening artefacts at high ISO on the Sony's and not on the others. Something is wrong with the jpegs that's hard to deny.

Here we have more problems, with this detail selective NR routine.
And the mushy grass is basically the same I got on my A57 test, even at low ISO the NR routine is poor
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-alpha-a7/14

I'm no DPR fan but cameralabs or Focus Numerique are hardly top tier sites either. Sounds like a case of sour grapes to me.
I'd love Sony to have good jpegs, but they're pretty poor and have been for a long long time.
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Birma
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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread post by Birma »

bfitzgerald wrote:Yes the A77 is around £599 right now, I'm sure it will be around for a few months and that's not a bad price. Problem still remains once it's gone, you are left with a £1000+ body and a £300 one, if anyone can't spot that as a problem then I'll start smoking something myself ;-) You can't have a gap like that it's a sale killer.


It might be a gap for us gear heads always looking for the model after the next one, but in terms of what is in the shops retail (UK), there is still A58, A65, A77 and A99 for A mount. Doesn't look terribly gap-ey unless you're desperate for an A mount 3 series?

Then you can go mirror-less with 3N, 5T, 6, 7, 3000 and 5000 on pre-order.

Oh yeah, and then there are a couple of new comers called A7 and A7R :) .

All a matter of perspective ;) .

Also worthy of note; both Sigma and Samsung seem happy to support both A and E mounts.

If you wanted to be a fan-boyish (and why not 8) ) you could say Sony are doing a pretty amazing job running two mounts. I bet the bean counters are doing their nuts.
Nex 5, Nex 6 (IR), A7M2, A99 and a bunch of lenses.
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