Sony A-99 11

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CHOLLY
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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby CHOLLY » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:56 pm

Sony was one of only a FEW cameras makers to turn a profit from its' photo product division:



http://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/28/sony-jus ... -hold.html

Sony just posted a 666% rise in profit as its turnaround plan takes hold
Arjun Kharpal | @ArjunKharpal
Thursday, 28 Apr 2016 | 6:15 AM ET
CNBC.com

Japanese electronics giant Sony posted a 666.5 percent rise in pretax profit for its full fiscal year on Thursday, helped by cost cutting in its smartphone business and the continued popularity of the PlayStation 4.
Income before taxes for the year ending March 31 came in at 304.5 billion yen ($2.81 billion), a big rise from the 39.7 billion yen recorded during the same period last year. Operating profit rose 329.2 percent to 294.2 billion yen, its largest figure since fiscal 2007, according to Reuters.


Canon on the other hand....

http://www.canon.com/ir/conference/pdf/ ... 6e-sum.pdf

And Nikon....

http://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_librar ... port_e.pdf

Things are NOT looking good for either manufacturer, financially speaking that is.
Last edited by CHOLLY on Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CHOLLY
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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby CHOLLY » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:05 pm

classiccameras wrote:There's no doubt, the A99ii is a great FF camera and it has seriously challenged and beaten in some areas, the Canikon's, However, its not the sort of camera I would want to own or use let alone afford as I am not a pro, just a happy snapper using Sony cameras at the budget end of the line. I still remain 'confused' as what Sony are planning if at all for the future of APS-C A mount, E mount is not for me, its yet another system you have to support with more lenses some very mediocre and some crazy expensive. This is why I am attracted to M/4/3, its an easy and value for money system that delivers on many levels, plus I love the Jpegs.

I find DYXUM, site good for Sony/Minolta lens appraisals, Its a collective users opinion rather than lab tests and the Sony 18-135 came out excellent with high marks from ex number of users. The Mk 1 18-55 SAM kit lens did perform quite well, read Photozone review, but my Mk2 was so awful I sold it on E Bay. Sony fooled around with a modified rear lens group and cropped rear aperture to remove rear element flair, end result, they wrecked the resolution. In my opinion, the best APS-C A mount kit lens is the Tamron 18-50 F/2.8 (non IS), its easily as good as the CZ 16-80 and Sony 16-50 F/2.8 and an absolute bargain. Even the Sigma contemporary series lenses are excellent alternatives to Sony. You must have had a good copy of the 18-70 as it generally got poor reviews. I might just look around for a used one to try out.


OK... so we've gone from the lament that Sony has abandoned the A mount... to "I still remain 'confused' as what Sony are planning if at all for the future of APS-C A mount..." :roll:

The A99II is at the EXACT SAME PRICE POINT AS THE A7RII, and THAT has been one of the hottest selling cameras for the last year!

And while there are plenty of people who absolutely LOVE their M4/3 cameras, keep in mind that physics dictates MUCH GREATER NOISE for each file due to pixel pitch/density, and noise is a KEY determinant in image quality.

So go right ahead and enjoy your decisions regarding camera purchases. Life is short... have a good time!

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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:10 pm

Sony is a big company thus fingers in far more pies than Canikon..though Canon get most of their profits from office type products last time I looked.
With the prices Sony charge I'm not shocked they've returned to profits including the camera division ;-)
The A99II is "a bit" cheaper than the 5D MkIV though a fair bit more than the D810..though I suppose some would argue the 42MP and super high FPS make the A99II a higher grade body.

I would like to see a body with a more restrained fps rate and less pixels for a more up to date FF body which isn't massively expensive. Seems the A99II is getting rave comments nothing wrong there at least A mount is still around bit of a shame they don't do something with the range overall and lenses. I don't mind if Sony make big profits but they do need to be a bit more attentive to where they are going I'm not a stock holder I just very occasionally buy something!

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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby classiccameras » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:15 pm

Agree with your comments Barry, I don't think Sony have quite got there yet on an A mount line up, its getting there but the A58 was a big mistake if they thought it would replace 2 excellent cameras the A57 and 37. A 57ii would have been much better idea, may be even mirror-less 57ii at the low end end of the market, I also think dropping the small bodies as we saw on the 55, 33, 35, 37 was a big mistake, people loved the compactness and there was a big fan base. Sony make huge money on their corporate entertainment with all the spin offs and record labels, cameras seem just a hobby by comparison.

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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby CHOLLY » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:22 pm

Ok... then think of it THIS way; in today's market, the companies that offer lots of different cameras and products in multiple lines from introductory up to professional... ARE GOING BROKE.

Just look at Canon and Nikon. :oops:

So it would SEEM... that the boffins at Sony are indeed onto something in this day of cell phone cameras and easy to please casual photographers. :wink:

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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby sury » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:18 pm

While we are at it, this is from Panasonic...
http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Panasonic-takes-out-scalpel-again-as-profits-falter

"....Three other businesses units -- digital cameras, private branch exchange telephone systems and optical disk drives -- will be dismantled. Each will be scaled back and placed under the umbrella of other operations, with headcount to be reduced."

Sury
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:36 pm

The camera market we're on about isn't aimed at phone cameras it's enthusiast based be it as a hobby or semi/full paid work all get lumped into the category where they will buy products of this type and the associated extras that come with them aka lenses flashes etc. Average Joe is probably happy with snapping away on his iPhone or other phone camera device. There are limitations to that namely the short focal lenghts..for most doing facebook and things like that it's probably what they want.

I would hardly describe Canikon as going out of business by any stretch of the imagination, even the most ardent Sony fan would be a bit optimistic to think that. Perhaps Sony have found something no doubt their profits are boosted by the outrageous RX range prices and E mount lens costs fair play to them if that's the case you can buy what you like ;-)

Going back to classiccameras I was using the film 7's and 5d's today and just pondered why I like those cameras as much as I do dated tech that they are. 7 is a platinum jewel for handling and is stuffed with (useful) features I find very handy thinking outside the box and not gimmicks useful stuff people might actually use. 5d was a cut down 7d yet retained the most important bits which reminded me why I bought it and not a Nikon D50 at the time (back then I had very little A mount stuff just a few lenses would have made no difference if I bought into another system). The 5d spanked the 50d red raw it had Anti Shake, MLU, a better larger viewfinder, wireless flash, DOF preview. The Nikon had none of those hence it got put back on the shelf. Those are things I use and often..5d wasn't perfect bracketing range limited but it's a solid beast and has held up to years of use. I bought it for those reasons.

With Sony they seem have had very mixed ideas on their cameras the A200 wasn't bad..my MLU tests sent DPR forum users into a rage my solution was simply to not use the camera for macro shots or longer range slow shutter speeds. It would have made more sense to have just included the mirror lock up. Despite those grumbles the A200 was pretty good at the time I eventually sold it as I used the 5d's more and didn't have to menu dive for flash exp compensation. Bar the A700 things were very wobbly for the entry range they cut them down even more then bizarrely aimed them at female users complete with girl grips and I think a matching bag at one point (sigh). Mid range went AWOL too A5XX series didn't really have 5 series stuff you know stupid things like MLU ie bits you might want to actually have. Some liked the A900 for it's day again hit and miss on the model range

SLT isn't my cup of tea I only use them as changing system is too expensive I can get by it's taken years or teeth grinding to get there. A57 was pretty good it seemed to keep most of the important stuff and came into a price range that was pretty acceptable so I bought one. A77 was on clear out I think I got the lowest price by a big margin £599 worth it for that I'd not have paid £1100 for one when they first came along..

There are hints Sony might actually be getting it, they've managed to make the A77 grip fit not only the A77II but the A99II as well shocking. The line up is a bit limited only 3 models there is room for another 1/2 which we probably won't see. It seems I'm not alone saying I use GPS and the AF assist..these are features a lower priced camera well if they are not there I can overlook that it's one reason I've not rushed out to buy an A77II even though there are other areas I might find appealing.

I wouldn't call this a rant but a longer term Alpha user saying similar things...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9p40JPLziw

There is still room for Sony to listen it's not really acceptable to say well they're doing well so let's just ignore what people are asking for. That helps nobody ;-)

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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby CHOLLY » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:50 am

The reality of the camera market is this; companies that make them lose money.

That is... except for Sony.

The fact that they only offer 3... maybe 4 DSLR style cameras is not by chance. It's because WE are dinosaurs and the asteroid is streaking towards the Caribbean. :cry:

No company can survive based solely on the contributions of a handful of admittedly thrifty patrons. That market niche just is not sustainable.

And we SEE what is happening to the companies who think this is still 2006 and the world their oyster.

I would venture to say that by sharing a common body and other components with the existing A77II, that Sony was minimizing outlay for this new product and thereby REDUCING the overall risk of financial failure in this shrinking market.

Smart.

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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:03 am

Sony's camera division is pure peanuts compared to their other income sources it's almost entirely irrelevant to the company as a whole..thus a niche line in itself. If you are a big camera company you're going to take a loss because the market has collapsed significantly. I buy products be it a phone or kitchen item I buy what suits my needs in short I'm not a stock holder so what xyz brand does I couldn't really care less about.

If Sony went out of business tomorrow it would have 0 impact on me I'd just buy something else I'm not tied to a specific brand bar the equipment I have even there I made choices to use other makers including lenses and flashes because they had what I wanted at the right price. The A77II is fine it's just massively overpriced for a 3 year old camera..the A68 is what is it a budget camera with some cost cutting don't really have a problem with it again it needs to be more competitive on it's price. Sony are hardly going to be pulling new users into A mount with minimal effort

I don't share the view that everything Sony does is amazing nor that people should just stay silent on what they want or look for speak up and share your thoughts that guy bought an A99II and shared his it's called customer feedback it's taken Sony 10 years to get some kind of grip that's a long time and a lot of mistakes easily spotted and avoided. The company got burnt badly on TV's and Notebooks don't assume they will always find gold in every market

I only continue to use their camera products as I can't be bothered to change or invest in other systems. There is some good stuff there but a lot of arrogance and misguided thinking too. They had a very real chance 7-8 years ago to do major damage to Canikon that time has now passed all the makers are fighting for a slice of an ever decreasing pie

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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby classiccameras » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:45 am

Konica Minolta handed Sony a DSLR system that looked like it had a great future and with sensible improvements could be developed into a really competitive system that could have challenged Canikon, but Sony in their ineptitude and sheer ignorance of that market under developed and cut corners.

The first 2 models the A100 and A200 looked promising as much of Minolta's technology and design remained and there IQ was superb, but after that Sony started to dumb down subsequent models, then came SLT, I am also not a huge fan of SLT and would have preferred them to have stayed as a DSLR or gone totally mirrorless. Its always been a fact that photographers are tribal in their brand loyalty, Canikon owners being a very good example, although jumping brands these days is far more common.

No system if perfect, SLT is a good example yet it takes great pictures and the higher end EVF are a pleasure to use, but there are other, probably more comprehensive and better systems out there. I guess its what people are happy with and invested into, and as Barry said, to change systems is an expensive thing. Am I loyal to Sony, no way, Minolta yes/was, Olympus most definitely.

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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:23 am

Comes down to reality for me camera sales are now at late 90's levels ie pre massive boom period for digital the party is over in a big way. Hence the reason for lower profits but Nikon's latest figures show increased profits from a near 10% decline in sales. Canon are not losing money ie a loss just like other makers sales have slid and quite significantly if you look over the last 4 years unit sales have tanked hugely I saw a chart showing over 120million sales now down to less than a third of that and still dropping in some regions. I'm not sure what the tail end of last year or this quarter showed the drop might level off but it's a mere fraction of the market it was a decade ago.

All the makers are doing the same thing chopping back on cheaper compacts some have near abandoned them and concentrating on higher margin products ie more expensive ones. Sony are doing the same thing pushing pricey cameras and lenses to make up for the weak market. Panasonic are in trouble Samsung bailed out entirely who knows what Pentax and Ricoh will do a few more makers are certain to exit at some point. What Sony have is almost genius except the open mount means you can move entire systems with an adapter and that's what I've seen some people do add a Sony with an adapter..yes some might have dumped the mount a lot just added a body. The real juicy profits are in lenses and there in lies the long term problem for Sony.

Not that I am complaining because it means being open you're not locked to a system any more. It also means any other mount bar E mount lenses are open season ie you can use them on other mirror less bodies. Suddenly being invested in A mount doesn't seem to have any risks just as being attached to Canikon or K mount isn't. Except buying native ILC lenses which won't work on other systems.

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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby classiccameras » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:35 pm

I think the Cell Phone/Mobile/tablet is the biggest single cause of camera decline. Cell phones are now the biggest Photographic user group in the world. When I hear a friend say I have 8mp cell phone and it takes great pictures, sure it does but it makes me cringe that this person has no other knowledge of Digital photography other than his mobile.

Its also worth noting that 3rd party E mount and A mount lens manufactures, namely Sigma and Tamron have nothing new to offer that we already know about in E mount, but I would guess they are not willing to invest any more money in more lenses for either mount until the route map from Sony is more defined and how the market or projected market forecasts performs. At the moment Pentax are bringing out new DSLR's at a furious rate and one wonders how they are justifying that with the way the market is heading.

I tried A mount lenses on my A6000 via a Adaptor, I got good results but they worked better in Manual focus, having said that my Sony 18-135 A mount on the A6000 looked stupid and ungainly, poorly balanced, not to mention the added negative of no IBIS. It became a non CSC,

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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:08 pm

The phone market is no doubt one of the biggest reasons for decline..but that's hit mostly the compact segment or cheaper bridge cameras possibly. It wouldn't really kill the DSLR market or larger sensors. It's not the only reason people just don't re-buy these cameras not most people. Same for film days I had a compact for a decade little point to upgrading. What happened was the digital boom people jumped on board and it reached fever levels when the prices started to fall. That was across the range even DSLR's were pretty cheap people got sucked into it.

Now it's like computers the upgrade cycles are just way longer I've a 4 year old PC updated a few things pretty happy with the performance no pressing need to buy a new one. PC sales tanked as have parts far smaller market (mainly gamer/enthusiast driven) applies just as much to cameras. I have most of what I want and don't really see the need to update what I have a lot of DSLR users I know are in the same boat I know some people using 10 year old cameras or buying s/h deals on previous models to save cash. Cameras are not cheap and they have increased in price when they really needed to go the other way to boost sales.

My experiment with Fuji X was mixed liked the sensor didn't like no IBIS, weak battery life and handling was also worse than an SLR unless you stick to small lenses I don't see the appeal much of ILC models unless there is something bargain wise bashing around FF. Each to his own some people love them I saw it merely as a cost cutting measure from Sony and others without reducing prices ie more profits. Some of the E mount lenses are bigger than than the A mount equivalents! Work that one out

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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby CHOLLY » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:40 pm

Fujifilm like other manufacturers isn't making much money in consumer photographic equipment sales... but at least the company as a whole is healthier than either Canon or Nikon.

https://www.fujifilmholdings.com/en/inv ... lights.pdf

BUT...

In this day of cell phone photography and easily satisfied consumers, it is getting less and less profitable to be in the camera manufacturing business.

You guys can complain about Sony until the cows come home; the FACT is, they are one of just a few companies that is still making money selling cameras... and anyone with ANY business experience realizes that failure to make money means that company will either find something else to do that DOES turn a profit... or it will go the way of the dinosaurs. :|

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sury
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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby sury » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:53 pm

CHOLLY,
I was looking for Sony news elsewhere and could not find any. Your link to CNBC is almost a year old. Do you have latest info?

Sury
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