Nex Cameras as reviewed by DPReview

[Vidgamer]

With the NEX there is a new (to me) phenomenon where people who have not used the product are "selling" the product based on their interpretation of a press release or discussion with a sales rep and get hostile if questioned or disagreed with.
tom

You should have seen the old computer wars... Microsoft vs. Apple vs. Atari vs. Amiga/Commodore. People became very invested in their brand. This wasn't entirely irrational -- I had a large investment in software and hardware that became pretty much obsolete after the dust finally settled. No longer able to get upgrades for either hardware or software, I was forced to repurchase. I'm sure it affected others as well.

This is not unlike Walt not wanting to change camera brands, 'lest he be forced to pay quite a bit to build up a new lens system, etc.

I also saw "console wars", with Atari Jaguar vs. Sega Saturn vs. Sony Playstation vs. 3DO. Sony came out of that one pretty well. The arguments were pretty heated, and often were just for entertainment purposes. I mean, in the end it didn't really matter if Saturn was better than Jaguar or vice versa as they both lost out, but it was interesting in the meantime.

I recall a kid working at a game store basically cursing Sony (when the PS2 had not yet been released) and heatedly insisted that Sega's Dreamcast was better. The PS2 was another big hit from Sony, and quickly surpassed Dreamcast.

So, I am not seeing anything new here. It's the same ol' fanboyism that's been around.

BTW, because I am excited about what I read so far doesn't mean I'm blindly "selling" for Sony. Although, I am pleasantly surprised to find that they often make products I like. It's not exactly a coincidence that they are good at consumer electronics and have their fans.

Doesn't that comment apply to the other side as well? People who have not used the camera declared it a "failure". Some declared it a failure before it was even announced on May 11 (such as Carl, maybe that’s why he is getting flake from people now). You also started a thread here about how it was a mistake and Sony should have released Nex-7 instead. Did you use the camera when you started that thread? But now we are hearing that it's the most sucessful camera launch by Alpha division.

I can remember many system-wars where people on each side would strenuously argue that their gadget was better because of various obscure features which probably mattered little. But it's as if the markets can't stand so many incompatible brands, and 2 or 3 survive at the most (usually two, with the 3rd doing badly). The fact that Carl argues against Nex before its release is a good point; people have already staked out their sides, and it's not as if pro-Nex people are crazy zealots and everyone else are calm, reasonable people. Even before the recent Nex announcements, Carl started being really negative about the future DSLR prospects too. Either he knew a lot noone else does (and it was really bad), or it seemed almost irrationally negative.

My guess is that Tom is not pro-Nex, therefore those Nex fans look like a bunch of crazies.

I've decided that I'm pro-Nex because 1) Sony tends to make responsive cameras, not sluggish, laggy ones like most other manufacturers (aside from DSLRs of course), and 2) I think that sensor size is one of the biggest factors for IQ, and I like the APS-C size. I could easily come up with more reasons. So, yes, the camera is not out, I have not used it, and I think I like what Sony is doing, or at least enough to give it a fair try. Not enough to pre-order it, but seriously am considering purchasing. With my luck, it'll be sold out by the time I get to the store.

[Danjojo_Resurrected1]

big failure, nobody would want this http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... l=ja&tl=en



definitely only for p&s upgraders, and even they will be disappointed because they didn't wait for the next generation (aka wait for certain other manufacturers to develop some thing similar)

[twm47099]

Doesn't that comment apply to the other side as well? People who have not used the camera declared it a "failure". Some declared it a failure before it was even announced on May 11 (such as Carl, maybe that’s why he is getting flake from people now). You also started a thread here about how it was a mistake and Sony should have released Nex-7 instead. Did you use the camera when you started that thread? But now we are hearing that it's the most sucessful camera launch by Alpha division.

Obviously I had never seen the camera and was basing my question on what Sony said (it was a question). I raised that question because it has been the usual thing for a camera company when introducing a new line to introduce models at the 7 level (or the equivalent in other brands) in order to make the biggest splash and get potential customers drooling. Then they would follow with (or co-release) a 5 (or similar level) for those who really want the features shown in the '7' but were willing to compromise for cost. (Sort of what Sony did with the 5 and 3, but a level up). One reason I gave is that the review sites will assume (pretend) that they are reviewing that level no matter what the company says. The '5' level always has (has to have) some compromise which is like dipping a bloody hand in a shark pool.

And isn't that what happened in the dpreview of the 3/5? No matter that Mr. Sony clearly stated that the cameras were aimed 90% at upgrading P&S users, dpreview reviewed it like it was an advanced amateur offering. And yes, I did point that out. I was always taught to lead with your best shot, and was surprised that a company like Sony wouldn't do that instead of just hinting at better to come. I don't believe that I ever said the 5 was a failure. I probably said that I thought Sony would have aimed higher for the Grande Premier.

I was probably also pretty disappointed that Sony had effectively told me that their new offering was not for me by making it an LCD only camera.

tom

[Danjojo_Resurrected1]

It doesn't make good business sense to start off with the more feature-packed, larger, more expensive model/models.

I think a lot of people are having a hard time with that....they are not trying to please the very small minority of forum posting photographers, they are trying to grab as much market share as possible.

[twm47099]

With the NEX there is a new (to me) phenomenon where people who have not used the product are "selling" the product based on their interpretation of a press release or discussion with a sales rep and get hostile if questioned or disagreed with.
tom

You should have seen the old computer wars... Microsoft vs. Apple vs. Atari vs. Amiga/Commodore. People became very invested in their brand. This wasn't entirely irrational -- I had a large investment in software and hardware that became pretty much obsolete after the dust finally settled. No longer able to get upgrades for either hardware or software, I was forced to repurchase. I'm sure it affected others as well.

I was the proud owner of the Compucolor II personal computer in 1979. It was the first home computer with a built in floppy disk drive (when the Apple II still used tapes). The drive was only 50k bytes, but was faster and more reliable than the cassette drives. It had a 64 character wide by 32 row RGB CRT, had Basic built in with ability to use assembler, compile FORTRAN, forth, tiny C, great graphics, database capabilities, speech board, etc. Once the RadioShack TRS and Atari's and IBM's were released (low res B&W and muted color displays), the CCII disappeared into history. My power board blew in the mid 80's, the company had no replacement. (But I still have the darn thing with all its hardware, software, and usergroup newsletters. I just can't throw it away, although I've thrown away more microsoft PCs than I can remember :.(

tom

[twm47099]

It doesn't make good business sense to start off with the more feature-packed, larger, more expensive model/models.

I think a lot of people are having a hard time with that....they are not trying to please the very small minority of forum posting photographers, they are trying to grab as much market share as possible.

Like I said, its just different than I had seen in the past and seemed strange. It is what it is. But people shouldn't be too surprised when the reviews aren't as glowing as they would like. If the company want to, they could have made a camera that would be hard (but not impossible) to criticize, but they chose not to - possibly because they don't care that much about the reviews, but probably for the reason you mentioned.

tom

[OneGuyKs]

Like I said, its just different than I had seen in the past and seemed strange. It is what it is. But people shouldn't be too surprised when the reviews aren't as glowing as they would like.
tom

There have been far more glowing Nex reviews than any Sony DSLR ever received. So you are not right about that.

[OneGuyKs]

I was probably also pretty disappointed that Sony had effectively told me that their new offering was not for me by making it an LCD only camera.

tom

I would have been disappointed if the Nex came with built-in EVF. The size would have doubled, and there would have been no valid reason to pick Nex over an entry-level DSLR (like Canon 550D or Pentax Kx). The camera would have been failure, like NX10. How is Samsung NX10 doing? I don't hear anything about it anymore,; that's the kind of camera that you were expecting? Nex would have suffered the same fate.

They should, however, make an external EVF for Nex for extra $.

[Vidgamer]

I would have been disappointed if the Nex came with built-in EVF. The size would have doubled, and there

Doubled? I say, make the camera slightly wider, and put a VF in the upper-left corner, like cameras I remember. It will still be inferior to that in a DSLR, so it would still get complaints, and it would add to the cost. If it were an EVF, you don't have to make it into a big hump in the top of the camera -- you're free to move it to a more comfortable position (where your nose doesn't have to be planted into the LCD). But hey, that's just my thought.

would have been no valid reason to pick Nex over an entry-level DSLR (like Canon 550D or Pentax Kx). The camera would have been failure, like NX10. How is Samsung NX10 doing? I don't hear anything about it anymore,; that's the kind of camera that you were expecting? Nex would have suffered the same fate.

They should, however, make an external EVF for Nex for extra $.

Well, they do have an external OVF. Maybe some will try that and see how big of a compromise that is.

What's unexciting about the NX10 isn't the VF but that it's a conventional-looking camera. What do you compare it to? DSLRs and GH1? Is that size all because of the EVF? Or was it more of an attempt to play it safe?

The Nex makes a huge statement about size. Why won't it make people wonder why other manufacturers have to make their cameras so much larger? Maybe it will.

[twm47099]

My guess is that Tom is not pro-Nex, therefore those Nex fans look like a bunch of crazies.

I'm not not pro-NEX.

I was looking forward to a pocketable camera with lens mounted that would be able to take adapters for other mount lenses. In concept NEX is that camera. But I was disappointed for 2 main reasons - no EVF option (I physically can't use rear mounted screens and the optional optical VF is only for the 16 and I don't believe it is used for focusing), and the only pocketable prime was a FL I have no interest in. I'll wait and see if and when the NEX-7 comes out if its something I can use.

tom

[bfitzgerald]

I actually like the styling and design of the NX-10. Some folks like conventional some are into funky looking stuff. I'm more practical myself and I put a much higher emphasis on handling and design than "looking different". I don't mind different either but it's got to have decent controls.

The problem with the NX-10 is it was not only a bit conservative looking (I don't see that as a problem myself), but underneath it's rather predictable and uninspired, EVF is ok not bad but not as good as the G1 EVF. It's got a sensor that is IMO simply not a patch on the 12mp CMOS one, and it's not very customisable, video is also a bit hmmm mediocre. Nice to hold in the hand though I will say that. It's just outclassed and not really worth the near £500 price tag..and no reason to even consider one unless you want something a bit smaller..when the K-x is about and hands down beats it in just about every dept and costs less too

Some say that they will do a more compact NX body and maybe that will be more juiced up..call me old fashioned here but none of these mirrorless models really appeals very much to me. Fire storm blow out sales aside I think makers have to up their game a lot more with these cameras. I'm also wondering how much long term profit there is in these models..if most DSLR users buy nothing more than a body and kit lens then this will be the same..but a lot less stuff to buy overall means they won't get back anywhere near the money some sink into a DSLR set-up on the ILC models.

Nobody seems to have thought about that side of things.
If Sony are aiming for p&s users (who really tend not to splash out on stuff longer term) that's a contradiction on it's own. How are they going to drive profits? Will they have a "semi pro" NEX? Or a range or premium lenses that are more expensive and thus more profitable?
The DSLR business is built upon hooking users in then enticing some to move up to more advanced bodies (thus more profit on those) meaty flashguns (again profit margins better) and higher end lenses (erm again..profits)

[Greg Beetham]

I was just thinking, that ever since KM left the camera business it seems that stability and commonsense in camera design within the industry seems too have declined somewhat, look at the superzoom review at dpr for instance, the IQ is really average in just about all of them, (well not acceptable for me, and I am willing too make 'some' allowances for the convenience of a small camera), for this day and age with good sensors being available, I don't think those efforts were up to snuff. It's probably competition gone a little crazy that's caused so many makers too build tiny sensor cameras with a large amount of MP's and huge zoom combinations. It's no wonder they aren't much chop past ISO400 with so many pixels jammed into such a tiny sensor...totally loopy, and unnecessary, except I guess if any don't do 12-14MP's in a tiny sensor they probably think they won't sell any cameras, and they could be right, mores the pity.
There's the same type of mentality with other things, like screwing up the still taking UI/functions/features of a DSLR just too accomodate some video novelty, ie. if we don't, and they do, we will be at a huge disadvantage in the market place and likely sell no cameras, so let's do it, whatever the penalty. Wouldn't it have been more benificial too have devoted all the time, resources and ingenuity in building an even better DSLR? ie. doing what it was supposed to do in the first place, be a first class still camera for the greatest diversity of still photographers, in almost every facet of photography.
And the virtual disappearence of sensible handy rangefinder-vf type compact cameras that can actually take decent photos, is another one, as Henry has pointed out, these days there should be one with a decent sensor and sensible MP's (and with anti shake).
Then the NEX, I think Sony could have got the thing sorted a little better before they decided too unleash it, but I guess the engineering section had probably overrun the budget for the camera and the bean counters stepped in and decided too go to market sortof 'as is' and apply the finishing touches too some of the accessories afterwards. No real harm done as long as the promised accessories actually do turn up.
Greg

[pakodominguez]

I'm also wondering how much long term profit there is in these models..if most DSLR users buy nothing more than a body and kit lens then this will be the same..but a lot less stuff to buy overall means they won't get back anywhere near the money some sink into a DSLR set-up on the ILC models.

Nobody seems to have thought about that side of things.
If Sony are aiming for p&s users (who really tend not to splash out on stuff longer term) that's a contradiction on it's own. How are they going to drive profits? Will they have a "semi pro" NEX? Or a range or premium lenses that are more expensive and thus more profitable?
The DSLR business is built upon hooking users in then enticing some to move up to more advanced bodies (thus more profit on those) meaty flashguns (again profit margins better) and higher end lenses (erm again..profits)

Hi Barry,

I had a deja vu reading this two paragraphs -I think I already read this, from you or from somebody else... doesn't matters.

I think we are facing a different kind of marketing, what I like to call the GAP marketing; you don't take your 6 months old pants to the tailor for repair: you buy new ones. Entry level models are the same: the kit zoom of your A200 will be outdated in 5 years (I don't know how often regular people update their cameras, I'm just guessing between 4 and 6 years) when you'll buy your new camera. This approach is not exclusive from Sony, we know that. Do we like that? No. But I think that unless you are buying into the higher end models, there are no other choice.

I think NEX is a system that will be nice to use with small primes (24mm; 35mm; 50mm and 90mm equivalents) and I hope Sony will understand soon, because a P&S upgrader that pay 600 US$ for a kit will be willing to get a couple of nice lenses.

Regards

[Danjojo_Resurrected1]

The E-mount 18-200mm lens wasn't really designed for the NEX-3/5 or the E-mount camcorder....

Mentioning the E-mount camcorder, that thing is going to be huge success in it's own right. Lots of video guys, pro and consumer, have jumped on Canon DSLRs....the E-mount camcorder is far superior. If you spend a week or even a few days looking into it you see Videographer and Average Joe into HD video have been dying for this product.

Put it together with the NEX-3/5, which alone are going to produce much more profit than a NEX-7 type ever will...the future is pretty obvious.

A very nice portion of the still camera/video camera market can be locked up by Sony within 24 months. That is the bigger picture in the end.

You might be able to have a NEX-3/5, NEX-7, and the E-mount camcorder...all for the price of a decent video camera or a900.

What if the next NEX model was 20mp and 10fps full resolution without focus/exposure lock? Some say Sony is working 20+ mp sensors for APS-C and 12fps continuous shooting...

[Lonnie Utah]

Some say Sony is working 20+ mp sensors for APS-C and 12fps continuous shooting...

I would buy that....