Why did Sony introduce the NEX for P&S upgraders - not ...

[Javelin]

[quote="bfitzgerald]


Great in theory but we'll wait for the sales figures to turn up.
And do tell me where these "people" who wanted these basic/weak handling entry Sony DSLR's are..because they sold pretty poorly.



I disagree. They sold like gangbusters here, especially the A330 I see more of those than any other sony camera out in the wild.

Hate to break news to you but unless people are "aware" of why they might want a larger sensor the pull points are entirely lost on them. That's why NEX is going to not be taken seriously by many..Sony yet again aim for the wrong user base.


Nobody cares about sensor size. they go to the store and say I want better pictures. the sales guy takes him to canon. he says man thats too big and ugly. his next choice pretty much has to be sony to show the guy.


They don't want a lesson? Do you ever actually talk to people outside..folks who use cameras just to capture memories and snaps etc. The vast majority of them don't have a clue about photography..in any way. Why would they want better than they get p&s..they don't know what better is![/quote]


becase all their pictures are grainy and out of focus. you say aperture or shutter speed to one of these folks and their only next question is will that make me have better pictures? It the same reason my wife wouldn't drive a standard trasnmission

[KevinBarrett]

I am rather heartened by the introduction of the NEX models. Neither are a camera that I want right now, but it's fairly transparent that they're introducing these entry-level models to sell us up the line later. Think about it, A-mount users who desperately want video with their lenses now buy these cameras, then in the fall they buy the A7xx as well. If they introduced the NEX3 and a NEX9 with every flagship function the legacy mount user could want, it'd be very hard to sell an a7xx to the same guy later. Don't worry, we'll probably see a NEX7 by the end of 2011 if the NEX3 and 5 are received well (and I think they will be, with a very exclusive feature set and despite a bizarre interface). The NEX7 will be a photographer's camera, faster all around and with more direct controls.

[Javelin]

Here we go again suggesting Sony avoid directly competing with "successful products"
Micro 4/3 has done pretty well..so why will NEX do better than that?
And yet the Canon rebel still sold far more than any ILC model on the market.


Yes but they sure didn't increase their presence by the same amount as 4/3's did.. If your sales are growing by small margins every year and a competitors product is coming that increases it's share 2 fold every product cycle you had bloody well better be worried about it. you can tell them all you want at the shareholders meeting that you outsold them every year right up until the point you didn't but your going to be toast anyway


Which tells us?

I'll let you fill in the blanks..there is no going back and forth debate wise, if you honestly thing a NY times article is read by most p&s users in the world..that speaks for itself.


this is an absurd point. I'd bet every single one who read the article has a camera of some sort what were you trying to say here?

[bfitzgerald]

Nothing absurd about it. I stand by my comments in that most p&s users have no concept of photography or it's basic principles on a technical or artistic level. One article in the NY times won't change that.

Anyway we'll see how these models do..the only real plus point I can see is the relatively decent price of them. Micro 4/3 has been price gouging for some time..so they're in for a bit of a challenge. I can still see many shooters getting frustrated by the lack of control in these models. Really it's about time Sony worked out how to offer proper video options..and a user selectable auto ISO level another example of dragging behind. In camera corrections..missing again. Who's asleep in Sony land?

But I'd wait till the big guns wade in..Canon and Nikon..but esp Canon. A G11 type ILC could do major damage..and we might see these pretenders getting a bloody nose when the world champ steps in the ring.

[Vidgamer]

Here we go again suggesting Sony avoid directly competing with "successful products"
Micro 4/3 has done pretty well..so why will NEX do better than that?

So, you would have Sony reproduce the micro 4/3 designs (and presumably price-points) and compete directly? Why wouldn't consumers just buy the Panasonic or Oly, then? At least those models have more lenses. Sony would have to rely on the name alone as a differentiator, in your view? I don't see how that would be a good business plan.

No, the Sony has additional features and a lower price-point. And they didn't stop at having just a larger sensor. They added panorama sweep and HDR modes, and even made an adapter for Alpha lenses. (At least it will auto-adjust the aperture, unlike adapters I've read about for m4/3.)

What is so bad about the Nex? It seems to do everything and better. Is it just that the ISO setting is buried deep in the menus? Well, at least it's there -- it's not as if they left out MLU or something.

And yet the Canon rebel still sold far more than any ILC model on the market.

Which tells us?

Which tells us that for photography, the Canikon brand is powerful? I have a couple of coworkers who really don't know much about cameras, but they'd rather look at Canikon than even think about Sony. It has nothing to do with Sony lacking features or this or that -- they don't even look at Sony!

Competing directly against Canikon is not going to go well for Sony. They need something unique, to disrupt the marketplace.

I'll let you fill in the blanks..there is no going back and forth debate wise, if you honestly thing a NY times article is read by most p&s users in the world..that speaks for itself.

Non Sequitur.

When a couple of co-workers inquired about which camera to buy for better IQ, the main thing I saw as an advantage would be a larger sensor. (Sound familiar guys? ) There are not too many P&S cameras with a larger sensor. The Nex would be a perfect camera for at least two of my co-workers. One ended up getting a Canon G10, which still is not their perfect solution, but at least it's an improvement. But a Nex would not be much more expensive, and the additional low-light capability would be valuable. To a P&S person. Someone who wants to take better photos and doesn't want to carry a bulky DSLR everywhere. Doesn't sound so unreasonable. What's so bad about that? Oh, the other co-worker is probably going to get a DSLR and use it in auto mode. So, yeah, all of that DSLR superiority, wasted on a lowly P&S shooter. And he specifically dislikes the size of SLRs -- he just wants better low-light photos.

[bfitzgerald]

Vidgamer I look about and talk to people..and have done for a number of years..I'll stick to what I have said most users have no idea or concept of what IQ is. Some might..but the majority do not.
A couple of co-workers is a long way short of most p&s users.
The NEX isn't unique it's just another ILC system among a couple out there already. You could hail the small body as an achievement..but the lenses are not as small as they could and should be. This isn't a shirt pocket camera..

Not everyone buys something for small. And to some this is bigger than they might want.

My concerns are similar to the DSLR ones..cutting things down over simplified. NEX has very limited video options, not a lot of customisation on offer and settings that could and should be quick and easy to change are buried in the menu system. This could have been so much more.

[Vidgamer]

Vidgamer I look about and talk to people..and have done for a number of years..I'll stick to what I have said most users have no idea or concept of what IQ is. Some might..but the majority do not.

In that case, they don't need a camera -- they can just use their cell phone.

A couple of co-workers is a long way short of most p&s users.

I don't recall saying "most P&S users". I simply think there is a large market of those who don't want DSLRs, but want better photos at the end of the day. Size is an important consideration to some.

The NEX isn't unique it's just another ILC system among a couple out there already. You could hail the small body as an achievement..but the lenses are not as small as they could and should be. This isn't a shirt pocket camera..

Not everyone buys something for small. And to some this is bigger than they might want.

Sony makes a very small HX5V with some neat features. But I think if you're going to want to step up the quality significantly, you need a bigger sensor. I think that, as mentioned before, if someone comes asking for tips on buying a new camera, and you find out that low-light is a concern and better IQ is important, and they don't want to drag around a big camera, then here's a suggestion that will probably fit many people.

The people it doesn't fit are free to buy something more cumbersome or with less IQ.

As for Nex not being a "shirt-pocket camera", for that, there's the HX5V. Personally, I'd like to have a "jacket-pocket" or "pants pocket" camera. A Nex w/16mm lens would do that, no problem.

My concerns are similar to the DSLR ones..cutting things down over simplified. NEX has very limited video options,

Limited video? You can zoom while recording. I thought most other cameras couldn't do that? The other cameras seem very limited.

The thing that strikes me is that for consumers you don't need the best quality video, but it seems like Sony is putting just that into the Nex. Oh well, if I must have high quality video, then I guess I will suffer with it.

not a lot of customisation on offer and settings that could and should be quick and easy to change are buried in the menu system. This could have been so much more.

Is it really that much worse than P&S cameras? I've read about the ISO, but it sounds like the EV adjustment is not buried deep, but one of the easily-accessible options. Where is the AV-lock (or do you half-press like most cameras)?

Also, the dial wheel sounds like it might make some operations much easier.

But yeah, it would be nice to set up the main buttons to your own preferences, for example.

[twm47099]

Sony made the right choice!

Had Sony first released the camera that looked like Samsung NX10, they would have not received any attention from the media (just as Samsung is already forgotten camera). People would have called it just another "me too" product. Others would have said the size is too big/similar to a DSLR.

Have a look at the New York Times article on Nex-5

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/20/techn ... pogue.html

What is DAVID POGUE talking about? Small size!

Yes there are a few "enthusiast" who wanted a DSLR like mirrorless camera, but there are millions more who wanted p&s camera, small size, with big sensor.

No Sony camera has ever received this much media hype before. IR posted a FULL review (a very positive one) the day the camera were anounced. (but there is still no full review of A5xx after almost an year later on IR).

This is the camera (given the price, size, and media hype) that Walmart & Best Buy would put on shelves and it will sell real well.

Sony will sell more Nex-5 than all their DSLRs combined.

My point wasn't that they should have released a large high level camera, but that they should release 2 cameras, one with a 7 spec and one with a 5 spec. Sony did introduce 2 cameras, but a 3 and a 5, and the differences between them (from the reviews) are not very significant, and the price IIRC was not that different either (we will have to see what the street price is). I like your last statement, but I wonder how many NEX-3 they will sell (unless the street price is that much different)

A 7 type with a more advanced user UI and a 5 (like it is) would have been a more traditional approach to a new system. My question is does anyone have any insight into why Sony aimed both versions toward P&S users and why does it make sense? (David maybe). To me it seems like each new release is a marketing survey -- 'how can we find out if this difference in video is important to the consumer?' 'Aha!! release 2 models where that's the only difference' -- 'but I want to see if a metal body is really important ' 'OK, make one metal and one plastic and we'll ask later in a survey if it was part of their decision making.'

tom

[OneGuyKs]

My point wasn't that they should have released a large high level camera, but that they should release 2 cameras, one with a 7 spec and one with a 5 spec.

No, that would have taken the thunder away from Nex-5. It got excellent coverage and very positive reviews.

A 7 type with a more advanced user UI and a 5 (like it is) would have been a more traditional approach to a new system.

Sony might release 7 later but they would have recieved cold response from the mainstraim press (just as Samsung NX10) (i.e. the response would have been: "another camera that looks like a DSLRS but is infinitly slower than DSLRS (7D, D300s) that it's competiting against"?)

that above response would have done a lot more damage to Nex line. It would have been DOA (dead on arival).

They did the right thing by starting with Nex-5. It's tiny, stylish and with metal silver lenses, would attract the type of crowd that Sony is going after with this model.

The world doesn't revolve around a dozen posters on the internet who want 25 more buttons.

[Vidgamer]

My point wasn't that they should have released a large high level camera, but that they should release 2 cameras, one with a 7 spec and one with a 5 spec.

No, that would have taken the thunder away from Nex-5. It got excellent coverage and very positive reviews.

A 7 type with a more advanced user UI and a 5 (like it is) would have been a more traditional approach to a new system.

Sony might release 7 later but they would have recieved cold response from the mainstraim press (just as Samsung NX10) (i.e. the response would have been: "another camera that looks like a DSLRS but is infinitly slower than DSLRS (7D, D300s) that it's competiting against"?)

that above response would have done a lot more damage to Nex line. It would have been DOA (dead on arival).

They did the right thing by starting with Nex-5. It's tiny, stylish and with metal silver lenses, would attract the type of crowd that Sony is going after with this model.

The world doesn't revolve around a dozen posters on the internet who want 25 more buttons.

Depends on whose world you're talking about.

I think you're probably right about the 3/5 release. Sony made a statement. A challenge that their competitors will have a hard time answering. If it's not possible for m4/3 to make cameras this small, then Sony will have also made a huge point. One of the big goals for this type of camera is to keep the size small, and in the new rules of this game, Sony is ahead -- not just in sensor size, but in smallness of the camera. That probably trumped (one might say compromised) other features, like in-body IS.

[twm47099]

BINGO!!!

This is exactly what I meant about offering a P&S upgrade that has been greatly anticipated and will be used and reviewed by advanced users. -->

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/revie ... nex5.shtml

tom

[OneGuyKs]

BINGO!!!

This is exactly what I meant about offering a P&S upgrade that has been greatly anticipated and will be used and reviewed by advanced users. -->

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/revie ... nex5.shtml

tom

That's one opinion. Had Sony started with a camera as "fully" featured as Samsung NX10, you would have seen tons of reviews who would have complained the camera looks and behaves like a DSLR but is just slower than the DSLR (as all ILC are).

You can't make all the people happy all the time. Some would complain about one thing or another.

An expensive ($1000) enthusiast Nex would have been a total failure (sales wise), even if LL reviewer loved it.

[Paul W]

To barry

Probably a number of reasons:

NEX3 and 5 are at an interesting price point below other similar offerings - they need to do this as Oly and Panasonic already have some presence in this area.
Sony has far better !Q and high ISO performance than other m4/3rds offerings in this new sector...indeed better than most Sony DSLRs,competing with the very best Crop DSLRs out there.
They already have some unique features - panorama, HDR and motion blur multishot solutions.

But I suspect the NEX7 will be more complex as a design and they will want to nail the lens compatibility for that...so wait a little and get it right.

The rest of the NEX range has been racing against time to launch before the World Cup.

As for the merits of launching many entry level DSLRs that's a no brainer for Sony...far easier to attract new buyers that to convert the large pool of existing Canikon users who have already invested in their system with lenses and other accessories. Get the entry level and cater for the upgrades...well with the A5xx/700/850/900 and soon the A7xx.

Does anyone thing Sony would have got 15% market share competing for existing DSLR enthusiasts.

[David Kilpatrick]

The NEX-7 is an interesting example of a rumour which has apparently become a fact. Of course, it is very likely that Sony will use other numbers for NEX and 7 is about as safe a bet as anyone could make. But it's a myth based on a whole set of website and forum rumours - which the Alpha 7XX and 2/5XX are not, they are based on prototypes shown.

I think Sony will be busy enough with the first two models and if a revision appears, it will actually be a NEX-5A with an EVF capability. This is the one thing almost every Sony regional office has been pressing for, and they say it is not necessarily going to happen; the accessory shot was not apparently designed, as it stands, for an EVF. Or so some Sony execs think, having questioned the Japanese and got no positive answer.

David

[KevinBarrett]

the accessory shot was not apparently designed, as it stands, for an EVF.

You can say that again, nor does it seem to be designed for much of anything else. The accessory attachment point of the Alpha NEX cameras has to be the least elegant solution imaginable.