Later NEX models I would like to see

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RubberDials
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Re: Later NEX models I would like to see

Unread post by RubberDials »

bakubo wrote:
Danjojo_Resurrected1 wrote:Does this sound right when talking about how large the mounts and lens diameters are for 4/3's and NEX systems?

"...made larger than a film equivalent would have been to maximize the possibility of telecentricism in lens design, as sensors don't work like film and don't collect as effectively from divergent light rays. This is a given of digital photography."

This is from RubberDials over at Dyxum, he went into a few more posts that had a lot more detail, but basically explaining how the mount seems large enough for a FF sensor but not if you want the right quality. This would seem it will be a long time until we have the tiny lenses of those older film cameras....new technology down the road maybe.
It is clearly the reason that the A900/A850 (with FF sensor) lens mount is so much larger than the A700/A550 (with APS-C sensor) lens mount. :) And the D3x/D3s/D700 lens mount is so much bigger than the D300s/D90 lens mount. And the 1ds4/5DII lens mount is so much bigger than the 7D/50D/550D lens mount.

Anyway, I can't say for sure. I suspect that this might be a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing though. :)

Also, just a reminder. We were talking about a non-interchangeable lens, i.e., fixed to the body.
Your sarcastic comment is borderline asinine since it is completely obvious why the NIkon, Canon and Sony FF cameras have the same size mounts as those for smaller sensors - to serve an existing user base with a very large pool of existing lenses. It is a fait accompli and there was no sensible economic option to introduce a larger mount for these manufacturers and a very strong economic incentive to make it work with the existing one.

The adequacy of the mount for the job is another matter, and where there is no existing lens and user base and manufacturers have been able to start from scratch (4/3, Samsung NX, Sony NEX) mounts have been made conspicuously larger than they were in the film era. (The 4/3 mount for example is twice as large as the imaging circle and would comfortably accommodate a 135 sized sensor.) The reasons for this are known to anyone who understands the difference between digital and film lens design and the different behaviours of the two recording surfaces. Before I began posting on the very long Dyxum NEX thread I thought this was more or less everybody but it appears that it is actually only a handful of regular posters in the A mount and Alpha community, of which I am one and you apparently are not.

There is no point in you making any further comments relating to lens design and sensor and mount size - even in your own thread - until you acquaint yourself with these differences. You could start by reading my contributions to the first three parts of the long NEX thread at Dyxum, but there is a lot of stuff on the web.
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bossel
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Re: Later NEX models I would like to see

Unread post by bossel »

I handled a NEX in a store yesterday. Couldn't really test a lot, but in terms of viewfinder - well the shop wasn't that well lit, and the refresh of the display was sluggish. Maybe I am just not used to EVF anymore :wink:
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bakubo
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Re: Later NEX models I would like to see

Unread post by bakubo »

RubberDials wrote:Your sarcastic comment is borderline asinine since it is completely obvious why the NIkon, Canon and Sony FF cameras have the same size mounts as those for smaller sensors - to serve an existing user base with a very large pool of existing lenses. It is a fait accompli and there was no sensible economic option to introduce a larger mount for these manufacturers and a very strong economic incentive to make it work with the existing one.
You missed my point completely. By the way, thanks for bringing the thread down to a much lower level. It is always useful to say things like 'asinine'. Can Hitler and Nazi be far behind? :)
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KevinBarrett
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Re: Later NEX models I would like to see

Unread post by KevinBarrett »

Boys, don't make me use the moderation tools...
(dusts off the moderators' tools)
Never mind, nothing in here makes people behave politely. You're going to have to manage that yourselves.
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Greg Beetham
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Re: Later NEX models I would like to see

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

I can understand and sympathize with Henry's point of view quite well, lamenting the loss of the viewfinder in compacts, he's looking at it from a photographer's point of view, and really to my mind that should be the more relevant one, not what a bunch of beancounters think is best, competing with the oposition too the n'th degree, and compromising the usefulness of the camera in the process.
I've never really bothered too look at the m4/3'rd area at all, simply because of the continuing legacy of the system and lensmount I'm already involved in, the Minolta AF mount. It turns out that the m4/3 mount is a totally digital mount from the ground up. Having no retro legacy/compatibility issues to be concerned with they had a free hand too do a good job. Having lenses designed expressly for the digital sensor with much more perpendicular light from the lens is a big advantage over pre-existing designs, they could reduce the size and weight of the lenses quite a lot to suit the smaller sensor, they also designed a flange size and distance that would enable most other AF mount/brand lenses to be adapted too it, unlike the new Samsung NX mount which is rather more limited...not sure on the e-mount as yet, but from the size of the mounting flange and the e-mount flange too sensor distance it looks good for adapters for most other lens makes.
Some interesting reading here http://cameragx.com/2009/10/29/50-years ... -vi-of-vi/
The real fight is now between the m4/3 mount and the e-mount I think, drag up the recliner some doritos and maybe a can or two and enjoy the show.
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bakubo
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Re: Later NEX models I would like to see

Unread post by bakubo »

It will be interesting to see what happens when the camera companies get involved in larger sensor small cameras. Of course, Olympus is already there, but not Canon, Nikon, and Pentax yet. It is mostly the electronics companies, Sony, Panasonic, and Samsung that have done something so far. I am hoping that Canon and/or Nikon will be a bit more focused on the photographic aspects and maybe just a bit less on the cool gadget aspects.

It does seem that, sadly, an OVF and even an EVF( :o :shock: !!) is on the way out. If a rear LCD was better in all ways then I would be okay with that, but clearly a rear LCD is not better in all ways. It is better in some ways, but much worse in other ways. I hate to see that for their own financial reasons the companies are rushing to having only a rear LCD. :(
Danjojo_Resurrected1
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Re: Later NEX models I would like to see

Unread post by Danjojo_Resurrected1 »

Henry you might have your camera, sadly with a m4/3 sensor but it's not so bad :D

http://43rumors.com/ft5-awesome-new-pan ... ngefinder/
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bakubo
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Re: Later NEX models I would like to see

Unread post by bakubo »

Danjojo_Resurrected1 wrote:Henry you might have your camera, sadly with a m4/3 sensor but it's not so bad :D

http://43rumors.com/ft5-awesome-new-pan ... ngefinder/
Might be interesting, but it is just a rumor. Sure, an APS-C sensor is preferable, but m4/3 is a lot bigger than the tiny sensors. Two things though. It doesn't say anything about IS. These days IS is ubiquitous so I would expect and want that. The OVF sounds weird, if true. A zoom lens, but the OVF does not zoom. No mention of flash either. The specs sound fishy, but who knows?
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KevinBarrett
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Re: Later NEX models I would like to see

Unread post by KevinBarrett »

It's not like Panasonic hasn't made anything like that before. Anybody remember the DMC-L1?
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bakubo
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Re: Later NEX models I would like to see

Unread post by bakubo »

KevinBarrett wrote:It's not like Panasonic hasn't made anything like that before. Anybody remember the DMC-L1?
Yeah, I remember it. I have played with in in Tokyo. It is a DSLR, regular 4/3, and huge compared to pocket cameras.
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KevinBarrett
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Re: Later NEX models I would like to see

Unread post by KevinBarrett »

Then what about the LC1? It wasn't a 4/3 sensor, but 2/3" wasn't exactly tiny either. My point is that Panasonic has a history of making some very aggressively specified compact(ish) cameras.
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bakubo
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Re: Later NEX models I would like to see

Unread post by bakubo »

KevinBarrett wrote:Then what about the LC1? It wasn't a 4/3 sensor, but 2/3" wasn't exactly tiny either. My point is that Panasonic has a history of making some very aggressively specified compact(ish) cameras.
As, I think, I have said a few times already, I don't care about the brand. If Panasonic has something I like then I will look at it. They don't yet though.
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RubberDials
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Re: Later NEX models I would like to see

Unread post by RubberDials »

bakubo wrote:
RubberDials wrote:Your sarcastic comment is borderline asinine since it is completely obvious why the NIkon, Canon and Sony FF cameras have the same size mounts as those for smaller sensors - to serve an existing user base with a very large pool of existing lenses. It is a fait accompli and there was no sensible economic option to introduce a larger mount for these manufacturers and a very strong economic incentive to make it work with the existing one.
You missed my point completely. By the way, thanks for bringing the thread down to a much lower level. It is always useful to say things like 'asinine'. Can Hitler and Nazi be far behind? :)
Actually you did that when you suggested that I didn't know what I was talking about. I'm genuinely tired of that one. It wouldn't take much knowledge of photography/science/electronics/new media/visual arts to be a 'genius' in the A-mount community, the level of participation is so low.

And I'm familiar with your disingenuous style, by the way, since you asked me a question on DPR some time back and then tediously donned your sarcastic cape and underpants when I said what you were waiting for me to say.

By your own admission you have 'certainly no knowledge of lens design'. Let that assertion guide your future comments on my posts about lenses.
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Re: Later NEX models I would like to see

Unread post by David Kilpatrick »

First, drop the insults please, they really belong on dPreview ;-).

Secondly, the major camera makers did consider aspects of their mounts when adopting smaller formats. Canon created the EF-S mount, which although physically identical is incompatible because it specifies a shorter internal back focus (mirror clearance). Nikon did exactly the same with the NEXIA mount (Any Eggs Here?) which was a Nikon standard F-mount but, again, with a short internal clearance to allow different lens designs to cover APS film.

Only Minolta went the whole way and produced an entirely different mount, Vectis, which was way ahead of its time and is virtually identical in functions to the E-mount but with a different register - for APS again.

One of the great things about the E-Mount is that no-one needs to consider its effect on lens design. It is one of the first mounts which has, effectively, no effect at all on lens design and imposes no constraints.

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Re: Later NEX models I would like to see

Unread post by Vidgamer »

If you want a non-zoomable OVF, there's always the Nex optional OVF... :|
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