NEX FF camera rumours on SAR

[Vidgamer]

Actually on Amazon both Samsung and Canon seem to be outselling Sony on the ILC camera section

I am assuming you mean Panasonic and Olympus. Canon is selling their cameras at a loss ($350 with the lens) to clear stocks. Both Pana and Oly flagship cameras were just released this month, so it's no wonder people are upgrading in a rush.

Lets see where the new FF Nex will end up on the list once Amazon starts accepting preorders. I am predicting #1 spot (for a day or 2) and once they start shipping they will back to #1 spot for a week (or a month).

In the early days of Nex, I figured if Canon or Nikon ever came out with a similar camera, they'd hamper it to make sure that it didn't compete with their bread-and-butter DSLR business. I wonder if they just didn't get aggressive enough to make a camera to compete better? Sony has less worry in that regard, and if anything, they can pull business from the other brands.

Someone posted on DPR that the A7 was at the top of the Amazon sales list. I imagine that the list fluctuates pretty rapidly though? So, I wouldn't be so quick to use Amazon as the example to downplay the A7....

[bfitzgerald]

Amazon USA are heavily pushing it (turns up very clearly at the top of the page for photo stuff)
So yes it will be ranked high as it's pre-order

UK Amazon it's not yet made an appearance so we can't judge.
I don't think the a7's will be a flop they might sell fairly well, but I think Sony are wasting their time making a new lens line up for that body.

I very seriously doubt Canikon will make something similar any time soon, but who knows.
I do expect them to come up with something though, some price cuts to FF bodies, and I really think a genuinely cheap FF body will arrive. Think about a EOS 300d a bit souped up, it gave Canon a decade of major growth (first really affordable APS-C DSLR) There is every reason to imagine a similar product for full frame.

If such a body arrives, it should fend off any E mount FF attack.
Least that is what I'd do with Canikon, they have the lens range there..all they need is a oh wow can't say no price tag and they are home and dry.
People will jump on FF if it's priced cheaply enough, and in fairly big numbers.

[Vidgamer]

Try being a tad more civil. Be honest how many NEX users (FF or not) are going to buy a small body to put a big lens on it?

In another thread, you were telling me that the 1-pound Tamron 17-50/2.8 wasn't really large and heavy.

What sort of lens would you want on a Nex?

You could argue Sony can make bigger E mount bodies, and they can. With lenses that are not compatible with A Mount. At least A Mount lenses are compatible with E mount with the adaptor. It makes absolutely no sense to make lenses like a 70-200mm f4 for native E mount

Until they switch completely to e-mount. Then it makes complete sense.

Folks actually have it the wrong way around, it's a disadvantage to have a sensor so close to the focal plane. As Leica found out it's actually quite hard to make good performing lenses that don't run and hide in the edges and corners. Many Leica lenses even as expensive as they were showed significantly more issues with vignetting, distortion and edge performance. Though they were at least small and compact.

Looking at Kurt Munger's comments here, Sony are having problems with APS-C and Zeiss glass...

"I took the Zeiss 16-70mm zoom out for some serious test shots, and in the process discovered the images are far less than what I had in mind for a lens costing $1000. Here's the thing; the centers are very sharp and impressive at F/5.6 at all focal lengths, but as you leave the center, the image softens, and the sides never really sharpen up at any length. At the wide end I don't expect the sides to be really sharp, that would be almost abnormal, but at longer lengths the images should be reasonable sharp with plenty of contrast at the sides"

Situation gets "much" harder with a FF sensor, even with offset micro lenses (to mimic the ability similar to film of light hitting it at acute angles)

Sony would have been better off with a lot less NEX models, and some lenses specifically targeted at shorter focal lengths..pancake primes and a good selection to cover the wide end to short telephoto. As it is I can't see how this strategy will work for them...even if they dump A mount entirely and make bigger SLR looking NEX bodies they still have the problems of that sensor so close to the focal plane. And they will have to re-build their entire inventory from the ground up "with OSS" as they're clearly not doing in body IS.

The entire episode seems very misguided and oblivious to the actual needs of CSC users, and A mount users.

They can serve both with one mount. And you can always design lenses with more air if you need more distance from the focal plane.

[bfitzgerald]

My idea of "getting heavier" lens wise is
Canon 24-105mm L, at around 670g 1.5 pounds.

Tamron is 440g and the Sony 18-135mm is 400g odd. Neither are what I call heavy lenses, they're not kit lens or small prime light but not beastly heavy lenses that are a struggle.

Nikon's 17-55mm f2.8 is 755 g, bit of a porker for weight and size for a lens (great build has to be said)

You will NEVER get really small lenses for E Mount esp not full frame. Reasons?
OSS (adds weight and size)
In lens aperture control (adds more size and weight again)
In lens AF motor (def makes lenses bigger)

Only way to get really small lenses (bar maybe a pancake design) is forget autofocus, go for M mount style lenses with MF, manual aperture control
Full frame 35mm rangefinder lenses are very small in comparison to anything you will see full frame from Sony

If that's a problem no idea depends on the buyers needs

[Vidgamer]

My idea of "getting heavier" lens wise is
Canon 24-105mm L, at around 670g 1.5 pounds.

Tamron is 440g and the Sony 18-135mm is 400g odd. Neither are what I call heavy lenses, they're not kit lens or small prime light but not beastly heavy lenses that are a struggle.

Nikon's 17-55mm f2.8 is 755 g, bit of a porker for weight and size for a lens (great build has to be said)

Soooo... Is it good to be large and heavy? Or just not on a Nex?

With the A3000, it appears that Sony is willing to make larger, DSLR like e-mount cameras.

You will NEVER get really small lenses for E Mount esp not full frame. Reasons?
OSS (adds weight and size)
In lens aperture control (adds more size and weight again)
In lens AF motor (def makes lenses bigger)

Only way to get really small lenses (bar maybe a pancake design) is forget autofocus, go for M mount style lenses with MF, manual aperture control
Full frame 35mm rangefinder lenses are very small in comparison to anything you will see full frame from Sony

If that's a problem no idea depends on the buyers needs

The primes can be small, but anyway, I wouldn't expect that Sony lenses must be intrinsically larger than other brands that also have AF motors, etc. And the shorter registration distance gives opportunities for compact designs, such as the 16-50.

As for Canikon making a cheaper FF, Sony has been keeping the pressure on for a while (A900, etc.), but this is really going to hit them where it hurts! Sony is in a position where they can make FF cameras more cheaply.

[bfitzgerald]

I don't expect a big panic at Canikon HQ. Reason is A7 is about £50 more than a 6d right now in the UK, and D600's are on blow out prices.
That's not going to impact them much "yet". I can't see many Canon users buying this over a 6d. A7r is only slightly less than a D800 so that's not going to cause huge concern either.

If Sony get motivated and next year start price cutting aggressively (and I'm not sure they will based on past track record) it could push prices down not only for FF models, but pressure higher end APS-C ones too (Can't see the K-3 holding at £1100 odd one example)

I'll put money down right now that Canon will do an even cheaper FF body, they have to protect their user base and there are plenty of people gagging to get on the FF bandwagon but only at the right price point. Nikon might do one but I think Canon will first. This could have a huge impact on the market if the price is low enough, and traditionally Sony are not one to do price wars it could hurt their E mount plans if the other 2 play the game smartly.

Has the A7 been £1000 off the bat it would be at the magic price point, so whilst it's a bit cheaper than expected it's not OMG wow this is it price point...not yet.
Also they don't really have a FF E Mount system and what they have shown won't really grab a lot of folks. They will pick up users who have lots of legacy lenses wanting FF and picking up an adaptor.

I think people grossly overestimate the cost of FF cameras. To me it is quite clear makers are pushing a premium for these products. Actual manufacturing costs are IMO not as high as some think, margins are poor on low cost cameras, but quite good on higher priced ones. If the A7 pushes prices down for FF and higher end APS-C and encourages more effort and better prices on cameras, that's a good thing for everyone. Really it's up to Sony here how they play it. Don't bank on a big gun like Canon sitting around and not responding, either with a budget FF (a proper budget one) or price cutting the 6d.

[pakodominguez]

Ok I've just read up on SAR about the new 55mm f1.8 Zeiss. So this costs evidently a cool €1100!
I can buy a 6d and a 50mm f1.8 and save a fortune!

The newly introduced Nikon 58 f1.4 is a 1700 $ lens. Nothing make me think that it is twice as good as the 999$ Zeiss 55 f1.8 (even if 1 stop faster).
There is a reason for this new designed lenses cost this prices. None of those reasons are related with your pocket. if you can not afford them, it is your problem, not Nikon's or Sony's or Canon's or Pentax's.

BTW, the Canon that you mention is not just and older design, but the barrel AND the mount is plastic (that you always dislike on Sony, but apparently on Canon it is not a biggy) and made in Malaysia

I know I'm wasting my time. But I'm tired of the true you spread, and the inaccurate price rhetoric you use all the time.

[peterottaway]

I just did a quick look for prices here in Australia including tax

1. Pre-order A7 AUD 1999
2. Pre-order A7r AUD 2499
3. Canon EOS 6D AUD 2299
4. Nikon D600 AUD 2249

Barry you can't apply one market to the total global position.

The same dealer had the Canon EOS 5 Mark 3 at AUD 3878, the Nikon D800 at AUD 3199 and the Nikon D800E at AUD 3497.

No one is suggesting that the market for the D800/D800E is going to disappear.

[bfitzgerald]

Inaccurate prices with what?
Some stuff is overpriced, and it's not just me saying that plenty of Canon users I know think the 5dMkIII is overpriced (and was at launch still is by a good margin)
Afford is a relative term, if you put your mind to it most people can afford something if they really want it, might take some time but it can be done

The Nikon 58mm f1.4 I don't get it at all, and yes it's overpriced hugely IMO
The Canon 50mm f1.8 is cheap as chips and tacky build but it's optically decent surprisingly, ditto on the cheapo Sony lenses optics are quite good (on the one's I've used) but cheapo build.

Everything is relative really I'd happily pay a bit more for better build budget primes, but that's up to Sony and Canon (and Pentax) how they do that.
Sometimes Sony can be quite good on prices, 16-50mm f2.8 is a great price really. Other times they lose it big time, I'm not convinced a 70-200mm f2.8 G II is worth $2999...few would be for a faster AF motor and a new lens coating. Sony 50mm f1.4 ZA SSM Zeiss I don't get that at all £1250 seems a bit crazy to me but hey there you go.

On the new FF E Mount lenses I think the general perception is "yawn" from what I'm reading and "oh they're big" and "pricey"
I don't think they've done a good job with launch lenses, but I suspect few will care anyway. Target buyer here is unlikely to be that interested in Sony lenses, and I suspect most know that too.

Sony might grab a few Canon landscape shooters who could pick up a body and an adaptor and keep using their Canon glass, same for other mounts. Sony are selling a sensor not a system that's how I see it.

BTW I don't live in Australia so I don't check their prices.
Canikon are doing cashbacks all over the place right now.

[Greg Beetham]

Lots of people buying or ordering a camera at Amazon that’s not available yet? and more to the point no comprehensive review on a production unit as yet either? Well anyway whatever, I can imagine there will be quite a few who will be mesmerized by the FF aspect, most likely the more enthusiast types and that puts the A7 & A7r in a niche…again.

I can’t quite imagine the more average consumer would see any great reason to get an A7, as far as I can see it delivers less of what they want and more of what they don’t want than cameras that are already available or already own.
For one thing I think the soccer mum category are over the MP war, they’ve already seen how unhandy large files are for sharing and besides all they seem to do is fill up memory and hard drives needlessly. (that’s the more of what they don’t want).

The other thing is you get a lot less reach on a FF camera compared to a smaller format. The only way to compete with a compact like a RX-100 is to lug a hefty zoom lens along, maybe beercan or even a 28-300, you could of course use a DT superzoom and defeat the purpose of buying a FF camera, but that doesn’t make much sense either.
Also you have to consider that after purchasing what appears to be a nice compact camera it then has to have an expensive bulky adaptor mounted on the front of it before you can use the large bulky zoom lens, and after all that it still has no image stabilization.
Unless you spend a really large amount of coconuts on glass all FF does with consumer grade lenses is hand you more outer field lens aberrations than what you get with an APS-C camera.

Sorry I just can’t see it selling huge to the family camera market, the price and features vs the inbuilt handicaps say to me it will be a dud in that area, they are much more likely to stay with something like a G15 (sensible MP’s) or an SX50 or in the SLR category a new Rebel, Sony don’t even compete in that category as they no longer make DSLR’s.
Greg

[Vidgamer]

Lots of people buying or ordering a camera at Amazon that’s not available yet? and more to the point no comprehensive review on a production unit as yet either? Well anyway whatever, I can imagine there will be quite a few who will be mesmerized by the FF aspect, most likely the more enthusiast types and that puts the A7 & A7r in a niche…again.

...

Sorry I just can’t see it selling huge to the family camera market, the price and features vs the inbuilt handicaps say to me it will be a dud in that area, they are much more likely to stay with something like a G15 (sensible MP’s) or an SX50 or in the SLR category a new Rebel, Sony don’t even compete in that category as they no longer make DSLR’s.
Greg

Who said that the A7 was aimed at "soccer moms"? It seems to me that the A3000 is aimed at the Rebel. $400 for something that looks a lot like a DSLR even if it isn't really. And photos should actually turn out to look good. Canikon probably can't compete with that.

People are very price-sensitive when it comes to cameras, just as with many products. Sony probably already knows how big the market is for a $1500 camera. Look for it to be a big hit, but of course, compared to cameras in that price range.

[Vidgamer]

I don't expect a big panic at Canikon HQ.

They should be.

Reason is A7 is about £50 more than a 6d right now in the UK, and D600's are on blow out prices.
That's not going to impact them much "yet". I can't see many Canon users buying this over a 6d. A7r is only slightly less than a D800 so that's not going to cause huge concern either.

When I look at Amazon, the A7 is $2000 with a lens, and the D800 is $2800. That's not a small difference, not just in percentage, but in the actual difference. If I'm looking to get into FF and I'm price-sensitive, that difference is huge.

The Canon 6D is "only" $2500. Even so, if you already have a handful of Canon lenses, it probably makes sense to stay with Canon. Similarly with Nikon. So, how does Sony shake that? Either people buy on price or stick to their favorite brand. We'll see how it shakes out.

If Sony get motivated and next year start price cutting aggressively (and I'm not sure they will based on past track record) it could push prices down not only for FF models, but pressure higher end APS-C ones too (Can't see the K-3 holding at £1100 odd one example)

I'll put money down right now that Canon will do an even cheaper FF body, they have to protect their user base and there are plenty of people gagging to get on the FF bandwagon but only at the right price point.....

Actual manufacturing costs are IMO not as high as some think, margins are poor on low cost cameras, but quite good on higher priced ones. If the A7 pushes prices down for FF and higher end APS-C and encourages more effort and better prices on cameras, that's a good thing for everyone. Really it's up to Sony here how they play it. Don't bank on a big gun like Canon sitting around and not responding, either with a budget FF (a proper budget one) or price cutting the 6d.

If Sony is able to pressure the competition to have lower prices then I agree that's good for all consumers, and is not exactly what Canon would have preferred. If the A7 makes no inroads, then there's no reason for Canon to lower prices. If there is a price war, I think Sony may have more movement to lower its prices.

I always thought Sony put pressure on Canikon with some of their previous FF cameras, such as the A850. At that time, it seemed to be much cheaper. There were other cases where Sony seemed really competitive, but yet, they still couldn't break through.

What I wonder is, who is the market for the A7? Are they hoping to tear away DSLR users looking for a good deal? What does it take to peel away customers from Canikon?

I think things may get more interesting with the sub-$1000 range.

[Greg Beetham]

Who said that the A7 was aimed at "soccer moms"? It seems to me that the A3000 is aimed at the Rebel. $400 for something that looks a lot like a DSLR even if it isn't really. And photos should actually turn out to look good. Canikon probably can't compete with that.

People are very price-sensitive when it comes to cameras, just as with many products. Sony probably already knows how big the market is for a $1500 camera. Look for it to be a big hit, but of course, compared to cameras in that price range.

Soccer mums are a large market (from what I read) and they buy decent ILC’s (Rebels are popular apparently, Canon sells vast numbers of them in the USA) with very decent lenses, in other words they buy whatever it takes to photograph the sport action out on the field, they might not know a lot about photography but they are capable of spending up.
But I don’t see them loosing magnification by buying a FF camera and a having to get a larger lens to take advantage of the large sensor, that doesn’t make any sense, and it doesn’t make any sense to buy a FF camera and then use an APS-C lens on it either, the A7 is not going to make many sales in that market at least.
The A3000 is a piece of junk in comparison to a Rebel, it would not even fool a soccer mum, and what E-mount lenses are there for sport action? none last I heard, you would have to lash out for an adaptor before you could mount the 70-400G on it…forget the A3000 it’s a complete joke from start to finish.
I could see those high magnification bridges like the SX50 making a comeback in that market as well.
Greg

[classiccameras]

We have a junior soccar league close to where I live and there are at least 4 games going on at one time in this huge park on a Sunday, most parents standing on the touch line seem to be using bridge and especially Panasonics, with Nikons and a few others.

As for FF, I think a large proportion of DSLR users with the possible exception M/4/3 fans would move gradually back to full frame as 35mm was the format that was used for decades by virtually every one, but digital was unable in the early days to match a Canikon auto wind SLR film cameras in size or price. They are beginning to now and I think its the aim for most of the DSLR manufactuers to get us all back to 35mm. Mind you, they seem to have chosen a poor time to do it with this ever changing market.

I'm sure APS-C will continue on to greater things, but initially it was a stop gap format because of design and price contraints on FF [although I think most of that was self inflicted as APS-C was the easier and cheaper option to adopt at the time].
Olympus wisely or wrongly, decided it was more sensible to go smaller and create a system round a smaller sensor which in turn required smaller bodies and lenses. As it turns out, APS-C killed that system although it still has a big following and I think the 4/3 format had a lot going for it.
Would I go FF, yes but it would have to be at the right price for me and the lenses would need to perform well and at a reasonable price too.

[bfitzgerald]

Wonder if this is accurate but it seems other things are on the way with full frame

http://nikonrumors.com/2013/10/20/break ... soon.aspx/

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-say ... otography/


If I were Sony I'd forget about trying to compete with the 5dMkIII, everyone knows sports shooters don't want an EVF (when will Sony get the message and stop kidding themselves?)

And do a really affordable FF body, high end FF is where Sony cannot hope to compete. We don't need another £2500 camera that nobody will buy