FF announced

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CharlieWebster
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by CharlieWebster »

Dr. Harout wrote:
Birma wrote:Nice one Charlie! :)
That's Gustav's shot (Ijsvogel).
Rgr that, and he, as everyone prolly knows has some stunning shots which have been up awhile at Dyxum.

However, my own 70400g awaits :)
alphaomega
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by alphaomega »

Something for Barry Fitzgerald to think about
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/from-sou ... ameralabs/
A trusted source just told me that “the pre-ordered quantities are almost 200% bigger than expected by Sony“. That’s great news! It means they already sold triple as expected! Now imagine how much more they could sell with a rangefinder designed version (NEX-7 alike).
Maybe Sony have finally "hit the nail" after a lot of so-so attempts.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: FF announced

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I'm just not that interested in it, have to be honest.
By the time you add the bulky fairly expensive AF adaptor for A Mount it's costing well over £1500 anyway and I don't find full frame even the slightest bit appealing at that price point.

I'm sure the A7 will be fine as it's the first FF ILC and it will sell pretty well no question. I prefer to spend my money on stuff I actually want, and that means a body that fits the lenses that I have, and they are A mount lenses. Even at a better price no IBIS= No buy simple as that.

Full frame is nice, but it's not enough of a step up to justify the price right now, even more so as all my A mount glass is stabilised in body, that wipes out any low light advantage full frame has just there... That's my take.
Stand by for a budget Canikon full frame which will steal the limelight back (ie genuinely affordable full frame)
alphaomega
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by alphaomega »

Reference Barry Fitzgerald above, I was really thinking about previous comments along the line of
These FF bodies could have impact in a few ways, but NOT for most buying into the system.
Leica M mount folks looking for a much more reasonable FF body yes it has fairly big appeal
36mp might tempt a few Canon users who want big res (but again they're not going to be buying into the system mostly re-using their EOS lenses)
perhaps underrating the potential impact the A7/7r could have.
I don't disagree with Barry's personal opinion of the usefulness of these cameras for himself. I am of a similar opinion. I have no intention of acquiring FF cameras, but I felt from the start that these bodies would have an impact. No doubt Canon will respond one way or the other if they see the Sony offering enticing Canon users to switch. Can they match the Sony sensors? Time will show. I am certain that Nikon is looking at ways of using these upgraded sensors in somewhat more competitively priced bodies.
A Dutch site http://www.pf.nl/19555/hands-on-sony-al ... os-lenzen/
has tested the 7R with Metabones v.3 and Canon TS 17 & 24mm lenses without any problems. The versatility being displayed is incredible. These bodies seem to be able to perform with a wide variety of lenses and specialist ones as well. Whatever system you have, adding an A7 or A7r will greatly enhance your versatility.
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Greg Beetham
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

I smell a marketing stunt or two with those new cameras, first there is all the continual pre-release ‘rumours’ ramping up the hype, and then the video with all those people waiting out in the predawn cold to buy a camera no less. And Sony just happened to have a film crew or two standing by with all the best angles mapped out, both inside the not yet opened store and outside from a cherry picker as well…hmmm I wonder how much the extras got paid?
And now there is the 200% over estimated pre-orders rumour…or not a rumour…whatever, but it is listed on the rumour site, whatever it is.
Greg
Ps maybe Canikon don’t feel all that threatened by a camera where you grow visibly older waiting for it to do stuff.
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/sony-alpha-7-7r/5 read the ‘shooting experience’ section.
Wes Gibbon
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Re: FF announced

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bfitzgerald wrote:I'm just not that interested in it, have to be honest.
Then why post so many comments?
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bfitzgerald
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Re: FF announced

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Wes Gibbon wrote:
bfitzgerald wrote:I'm just not that interested in it, have to be honest.
Then why post so many comments?
Question asked question responded to.
I think the point is being missed entirely.

The real problem isn't selling the bodies, they're not going to sell the system that's the long term problem for Sony
As most of the profits come from the other stuff (and not the bodies) I think it has some potential, but as a system not really as much as some suggest.
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by Wes Gibbon »

bfitzgerald wrote:
The real problem isn't selling the bodies, they're not going to sell the system that's the long term problem for Sony
As most of the profits come from the other stuff (and not the bodies) I think it has some potential, but as a system not really as much as some suggest.
Since you're not interested in either FF or CSC's how can you speak for those who are? You've said what you think, why keep repeating yourself? And exactly who is claiming it will be a game-changer for the majority of DSLR or CSC users?
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bfitzgerald
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Wes Gibbon wrote:
bfitzgerald wrote:
The real problem isn't selling the bodies, they're not going to sell the system that's the long term problem for Sony
As most of the profits come from the other stuff (and not the bodies) I think it has some potential, but as a system not really as much as some suggest.
Since you're not interested in either FF or CSC's how can you speak for those who are? You've said what you think, why keep repeating yourself? And exactly who is claiming it will be a game-changer for the majority of DSLR or CSC users?

Why waste your own time questioning my remarks?
I have no problems with your thoughts and views and respect them..so learn to do likewise.

The "system" aspect is a problem for all the ILC models, not just Sony ones. The advantage of being able able to use other lenses via adaptors has obvious plus points (for the user) clearly it does have potential to damage native lens sales too. I'm not sure any of the ILC makers (be it FF, APS-C or micro 4/3) have really understood that part of it. I believe it's one reason CSC's have had a mixed response (I think that's a fair remark)

I would also point out, and this strikes me as quite obvious..I don't see any price incentive to look at these ILC models, bar being able to use other lenses (and save money) Less parts, small bodies, less production time has not translated into better prices for customers. I think that's the other reasons mirror less has not done as well as some suggested. It's interesting to see what happens, and I'm quite happy for a logical discussion on that :mrgreen:
Vidgamer
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by Vidgamer »

bfitzgerald wrote:
Wes Gibbon wrote:
bfitzgerald wrote:
The real problem isn't selling the bodies, they're not going to sell the system that's the long term problem for Sony
As most of the profits come from the other stuff (and not the bodies) I think it has some potential, but as a system not really as much as some suggest.
Since you're not interested in either FF or CSC's how can you speak for those who are? You've said what you think, why keep repeating yourself? And exactly who is claiming it will be a game-changer for the majority of DSLR or CSC users?

Why waste your own time questioning my remarks?
I have no problems with your thoughts and views and respect them..so learn to do likewise.

The "system" aspect is a problem for all the ILC models, not just Sony ones. The advantage of being able able to use other lenses via adaptors has obvious plus points (for the user) clearly it does have potential to damage native lens sales too. I'm not sure any of the ILC makers (be it FF, APS-C or micro 4/3) have really understood that part of it. I believe it's one reason CSC's have had a mixed response (I think that's a fair remark)

I would also point out, and this strikes me as quite obvious..I don't see any price incentive to look at these ILC models, bar being able to use other lenses (and save money) Less parts, small bodies, less production time has not translated into better prices for customers. I think that's the other reasons mirror less has not done as well as some suggested. It's interesting to see what happens, and I'm quite happy for a logical discussion on that :mrgreen:
It does seem that low-end DSLRs are as cheap as the "mirrorless" ILCs, when it comes to APS-C. It seems a bit counterintuitive, but perhaps DSLRs sell in greater numbers, and there's more efficience in the production? Also, I don't think Sony takes a loss on the ILC cameras (trying to make it up on future lens sales). That could be one reason why they don't worry so much about old manual adapted lenses stealing away sales.

But for FF, I think a of people are going to look to the A7 and A7r as cheaper ways to get into FF digital. For those willing to go manual focus, it might be a really good deal.

I'm not interested in purchasing the new cameras either, for various reasons, but I do find them interesting and can see where'd they'd be popular.
peterottaway
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by peterottaway »

I must admit if I was buying my first "slr" today and not some 40 years ago then I would be looking very seriously at the new Olympus model. But instead I have a smallish Nikon collection - perhaps the newish D610 to compliment the D700 ? And I do have quite a lot of FF Minolta and Sony lenses plus a couple of APS-C lenses, so that I am more inclined to buy a FF camera the next time round.

Now that camera may be an A or an E model camera, I have no major preference either way. I do have the LA EA2 converter for my Nex 7 which I find totally adequate for my needs and a far cheaper alternative to doubling up on my lens collection. And I have been using the Nex a lot more than my A850 or my D700 even with the problems of getting wide angle coverage.

I am quite content with the latest EVFs, the A7/A7r improve on the placement of controls and use my preferred Alpha menu rather than the Nex menu structure. Given that SAR is reporting that Sony will be introducing new A model cameras in the first part of 2014, I am inclined to wait a little longer before making my choice.
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Birma
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by Birma »

I'm having the same thoughts as Peter. As tempting as they are, I think I will wait to see what Sony bring out in A mount next quarter. A mirror-less A99 with the 36 Mp sensor from the A7r would be great :) (just keep the flippy-flappy rear screen please!).

I wonder if the whole idea of people sticking to a single system is a disappearing paradigm anyway. I'm sure that Sony and the MFTs manufacturers would like to disrupt this anyway.
Nex 5, Nex 6 (IR), A7M2, A99 and a bunch of lenses.
Wes Gibbon
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by Wes Gibbon »

bfitzgerald wrote:
Wes Gibbon wrote:
bfitzgerald wrote:
The real problem isn't selling the bodies, they're not going to sell the system that's the long term problem for Sony
As most of the profits come from the other stuff (and not the bodies) I think it has some potential, but as a system not really as much as some suggest.
Since you're not interested in either FF or CSC's how can you speak for those who are? You've said what you think, why keep repeating yourself? And exactly who is claiming it will be a game-changer for the majority of DSLR or CSC users?

Why waste your own time questioning my remarks?
I have no problems with your thoughts and views and respect them..so learn to do likewise.
I'm sorry - I may have overstated the case. It seems to me that you are interested, even if you have no intention of buying into FF (or NEX for that matter).
bfitzgerald wrote:The "system" aspect is a problem for all the ILC models, not just Sony ones. The advantage of being able able to use other lenses via adaptors has obvious plus points (for the user) clearly it does have potential to damage native lens sales too. I'm not sure any of the ILC makers (be it FF, APS-C or micro 4/3) have really understood that part of it.
Are you really sure that the likes of Canikon don't consider this? By the way, am I right in thinking that ILC stands for 'Interchangeable Lens Camera'. If so, does that include DSLR's? If not, can you enlighten me and forgive my ignorance?
bfitzgerald wrote:I believe it's one reason CSC's have had a mixed response (I think that's a fair remark)

I would also point out, and this strikes me as quite obvious..I don't see any price incentive to look at these ILC models, bar being able to use other lenses (and save money). Less parts, small bodies, less production time has not translated into better prices for customers. I think that's the other reasons mirror less has not done as well as some suggested.
I don't myself remember too many people cliaiming that the main advantage of CSC's is on price - certainly the attraction for me is that they are smaller and lighter (and less conspicuous). I recently heard of a professional photographer who has switched to a NEX system for landscape work now that his advancing years make it difficult to carry a large kit on location. and with the 16-50 zoom the NEX cameras are just about pocketable.

I recently bought a NEX7 to fill a gap between my A900 and a little Fuji compact (which I use mainly for getting a GPS reading), and I have been pleasantly surprised. I don't see it supplanting DLSR's (at least in the immediate future), but Canikon may need to be careful if they rely too much on volume sales of dSLR's. We live in changing times - in the last five years, smart phones and tablets seem to have almost taken over the daily lives of many people. I was taken aback recently to see just how many tourists in London were using tablets to take holiday snaps! A semi-pro photographer recently told me that his Canon rep said that the company they fear is not Nikon (and certainly not Sony), but Apple!
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bfitzgerald
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

SAR are suggesting the A77 will get an update, and a higher mp A99
I'd prefer to see a more economical full frame from Sony if they go 36mp the price will be even higher when they badly need a cheaper FF body.
I very much doubt Sony will be able to replicate the £1150 intro price of the A77
Funny thing is SLT Was a dead donkey months ago, now it seems to be back on the cards.

They have a lot of work to do, A65 is outdated too, A58 is a weak offering in the market.
I don't expect Sony to change direction, higher prices, not likely much on the lens front. If I stick with A mount I'll be hunting on ebay for another body most likely
It wouldn't hurt to squash some of those bugs and issues with some firmware updates, but again I think the message just is not getting through. Fine by me the s/h market is quite good lately :mrgreen:

Regarding compact system cameras, I think it is naive for makers to think they can charge DSLR prices or above and people will buy into them. They are fine for landscape and travel, thing is I do other things and my only real interest is not replacing my DSLR's but an additional body which I could use a day trip one. I'd be quite unlikely to purchase lenses for it though. As of yet I've not really found anything suitable or that grabs me. No idea why Canon would fear Apple, for some of us an iphone isn't a substitute for the above stuff, far from it. And the ipad takes photos yes, but hardly the ideal tool for most of us.

The idea of a universal mount has been discussed before, it's a great idea. But it means a number of makers are out of business very quickly, take your pick who takes the fall on that one.
peterottaway
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by peterottaway »

I think that from looking at prices for recently introduced lenses and comments from Nikon execs that cheap is going away for many segments of the camera market.

To survive the companies need to obtain some sort of profit from the market and this has not been happening. The so called smart phone has killed off the mass market sector for cameras as we all are becoming aware and higher end camera sales are dropping as well. So selling a somewhat smaller number of $1500 to $2000 can make sense especially as the cameras tend to have longer model lives. Bragging rights for the first company to 1 billion cameras in a decade no, a reasonable chance to make a profit most years yer.

There will continue to be rather simple ( perhaps to be polite I should have said less complex) introductory models with little profit and no separate R & D, which will keep the bankers from the door as they mean money is coming in. Nothing more than annual cosmetic facelifts like the car industry and just the hardware changes needed as parts go out of production or cheaper alternatives come on the market.

When you consider the prices for the newer mirror less type of camera just remember that they cost billions in R & D to bring to market. A market that may not have existed when big dollars were first committed to their production.
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