FF announced

For discussion of the E and FE mount mirrorless system
Vidgamer
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by Vidgamer »

bfitzgerald wrote:...

Regarding compact system cameras, I think it is naive for makers to think they can charge DSLR prices or above and people will buy into them. They are fine for landscape and travel, thing is I do other things and my only real interest is not replacing my DSLR's but an additional body which I could use a day trip one. I'd be quite unlikely to purchase lenses for it though. As of yet I've not really found anything suitable or that grabs me. No idea why Canon would fear Apple, for some of us an iphone isn't a substitute for the above stuff, far from it. And the ipad takes photos yes, but hardly the ideal tool for most of us.
Who's "most of us"? Most of us reading photography forums, sure, but for the huge, vast majority of people taking photographs, they're going to ditch the compact P&S and just use their phone. They're already doing it. And you know what? It's probably good enough for most of them as well. The iPhone camera is pretty decent; results are really pleasant. So, yeah, Apple, Samsung, and Nokia are the competition for manufacturers of traditional P&S cameras.

As for me, if the only camera I have is the iPhone, I will use the iPhone, no problem. In low light, it gives far better results than I would have expected; really surprises me.
The idea of a universal mount has been discussed before, it's a great idea. But it means a number of makers are out of business very quickly, take your pick who takes the fall on that one.
A lot of things don't seem possible except that a more hungry competitor can always make a cheaper product that undercuts the existing products.

I think Sony may be able to make a profit on just the cameras, so maybe they don't mind the adapters and other lenses being used. If you want better AF, you'll need native Nex lenses, at least. They are more hungry for customers, so they're more likely to accommodate them. Canikon have a strong interest in being sure that you're locked-into their mount.
classiccameras
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by classiccameras »

Unless your desperate to change your system or are wondering which direction to take with all these new Sony cameras, or even jump ship, it may be wise to all go on 'hold' for a while to see what Sony have to offer in 'A' mount. You never know, we might all be surprised or very disappointed. I'm sure for me at least I can make a more informed decision when all the [new] cards are on the table.
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by Wes Gibbon »

Vidgamer wrote: I think Sony may be able to make a profit on just the cameras, so maybe they don't mind the adapters and other lenses being used. If you want better AF, you'll need native Nex lenses, at least. They are more hungry for customers, so they're more likely to accommodate them. Canikon have a strong interest in being sure that you're locked-into their mount.
Isn't it the case that the bulk of the purchasers of bog-standard dslr's buy them for family and holiday snaps, and the only extra lens they are likely to buy is a telephoto zoom? In which case, I think all interchangeable lens cameras will need to make a profit for the manufacturer because most of the purchasers will not add to their lens collection beyond maybe a telephoto, whatever their aspirations were when they bought the camera. And the camera manufactuers can't make too much profit on the telephoto because Sigma and Tamron arte ready and waiting with cheaper alternatives.

It is noticeable that the NEX lenses are reasonably priced if you want a telephoto zoom or 30mm macro, while the wide/standard zoom is almost invariably supplied as a kit lens. Almost all the other lenses are eye-wateringly expensive for what they are, probably because the demand is so low in comparison (and a lot of them carry the Zeiss name).
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bfitzgerald
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Ran across this discussing the low end problem:

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/the ... oblem.html

The issue for ILC's is they might get squeezed at both ends. Higher end better compacts meeting the needs of "most" (who don't really want more lenses crowd) and genuinely portable nothing extra to carry, could cause problems for mirror less. Cheap DSLR's offering " more bang per buck" and opening up the door for more serious users.

As for the mirror less rampage, well a few issues as per that article.
Lower end ILC's have no viewfinder, nothing at all which is a bit of a problem for some buyers, you have to move up to a NEX 6 or higher for a VF (in Sony's range), yet prices are no better than lower end DSLR's. That's one reason I find the cost point to be a real thorn in the side of mirror less. No VF, in some cases no hot shoe or built in flash, less moving parts aka no mirror box/prism etc, only micro 4/3 offers IBIS. Bottom line is there isn't a hope in hell I'd go for that (purely on convenience alone)

Users like myself who just want a more compact day camera would be better off with erm..probably a better quality compact.
Or if I did buy an ILC, there is no guarantee I'd buy a Sony either (there are other options) plus if I'm intent on using my lenses that I have already I'm not that likely to be buying native ILC lenses. Unless you are a switcher wanting the smaller size and happy to dump your current system, I see mirrorless as a bit of a paper tiger really, there is a market for it, but it's nowhere near as dominating as some think.

I suppose we shall see how ILC's do in 2014 and if they can turn sales around from the sharp falls this year.
Worth pointing out that Sony now have "4" A mount adaptors, 2 APS-C one SLT, 2 FF one SLT. That could be a bit confusing for buyers
classiccameras
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by classiccameras »

I think compacts have already lost the battle to mobiles [cell phones].

High end compacts are now being directed towards a more discerning niche market and often advertised as a back up walk around camera to your DSLR.

As the article ended up saying, some one is going to loose the battle, but I have no idea who, perhaps the compact, but I think its safe to say that Canikon are here for a bit longer as are Bridge cameras. The once first time DSLR buyer is now looking at Bridge cameras as a possible alternative.
Vidgamer
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by Vidgamer »

bfitzgerald wrote:Ran across this discussing the low end problem:

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/the ... oblem.html

The issue for ILC's is they might get squeezed at both ends. Higher end better compacts meeting the needs of "most" (who don't really want more lenses crowd) and genuinely portable nothing extra to carry, could cause problems for mirror less. Cheap DSLR's offering " more bang per buck" and opening up the door for more serious users.
Had something like the RX100 been available years ago, perhaps I wouldn't have felt a need to buy a DSLR. I liked high-end compacts, but there was a period where manufacturers had very few for sale, and they all used small sensors, etc. So, I got a "cheap DSLR" for the price of a high-end compact, as you say. It was a lot of fun, except for the bulk -- I wanted the quality but without the bulk. That's where the Nex comes in.
As for the mirror less rampage, well a few issues as per that article.
Lower end ILC's have no viewfinder, nothing at all which is a bit of a problem for some buyers, you have to move up to a NEX 6 or higher for a VF (in Sony's range), yet prices are no better than lower end DSLR's. That's one reason I find the cost point to be a real thorn in the side of mirror less. No VF, in some cases no hot shoe or built in flash, less moving parts aka no mirror box/prism etc, only micro 4/3 offers IBIS. Bottom line is there isn't a hope in hell I'd go for that (purely on convenience alone)
We all make our choices, and price is an important one. At the low-end, you're right that things like no VF or proper hot shoe are problems for the advanced enthusiast, but may not be as much of a problem for many people.

But when you move up to a Nex-6, you're right that prices are no better, but it's not like you're sacrificing much. After years, we now have options -- we can get quality in a more portable package. Even the kit lenses have OSS. There's no way I'd go for a DSLR. ;-)
Users like myself who just want a more compact day camera would be better off with erm..probably a better quality compact.
I wish more of these had been available in the past. Today, there are some good choices. These days, I'm interested in the Nex rather than, say, an RX100 because the Nex still has a distinct larger sensor advantage, as well as being able to change lenses.
Or if I did buy an ILC, there is no guarantee I'd buy a Sony either (there are other options) plus if I'm intent on using my lenses that I have already I'm not that likely to be buying native ILC lenses.
If you want to use legacy 35mm-format lenses, you're probably better-off using the Nex than other MILC alternatives.

Would you rather buy for the quality or the convenience? It's hard to tell. You can have both with the Nex, but that seems to be your least-preferred choice.
Unless you are a switcher wanting the smaller size and happy to dump your current system, I see mirrorless as a bit of a paper tiger really, there is a market for it, but it's nowhere near as dominating as some think.

I suppose we shall see how ILC's do in 2014 and if they can turn sales around from the sharp falls this year.
We'll also have to see how DSLRs do in 2014 and see if they can turn sales around from the sharp falls this year. ;-) Seriously, both formats have had fewer sales lately.

However, I think it's true that more people prefer the DSLR format. That doesn't mean that ILCs should disappear, as there are still those of us that prefer a more compact format.

I think a lot of the attraction of the DSLR format is the impression that it is the mark of a "pro" camera. I think more people would be interested in smaller cameras, if smaller cameras gained a better reputation; the Nex just "looks" like a typical P&S and doesn't inspire the confidence of a massive DSLR.
Worth pointing out that Sony now have "4" A mount adaptors, 2 APS-C one SLT, 2 FF one SLT. That could be a bit confusing for buyers
For which buyers? It's not going to be the typical Nex buyer who will be shopping for A-mount lenses to adapt, but you do have to know what you're doing to choose correctly. It's hardly the only confusing thing in the realm of interchangeable lens cameras; for example, Nikon changed their format, removing screw drive, and you could buy a legacy lens that wouldn't work on a new camera. There are m43 lenses that require software adjustment and which will do so on one manufacturer's cameras but not on another's. Surely there are others?

But, if you buy a Nex and stick to Nex lenses, it should work simply enough.

If someone feels to overwhelmed by ILC, they should stick to a bridge camera or advanced compact.
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pakodominguez
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Re: FF announced

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Vidgamer wrote: But when you move up to a Nex-6, you're right that prices are no better, but it's not like you're sacrificing much. After years, we now have options -- we can get quality in a more portable package. Even the kit lenses have OSS. There's no way I'd go for a DSLR. ;-)

I wish more of these had been available in the past. Today, there are some good choices. These days, I'm interested in the Nex rather than, say, an RX100 because the Nex still has a distinct larger sensor advantage, as well as being able to change lenses.
http://photoclubalpha.com/forum/viewtop ... 865#p78865
I think this is still the case.
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by alphaomega »

I subscribe to Classiccameras' view
Unless your desperate to change your system or are wondering which direction to take with all these new Sony cameras, or even jump ship, it may be wise to all go on 'hold' for a while to see what Sony have to offer in 'A' mount. You never know, we might all be surprised or very disappointed. I'm sure for me at least I can make a more informed decision when all the [new] cards are on the table.
I see no immediate need to change and find all the exalted discussions about new cameras rather esoteric. Fact is that good pictures have been generated for decades and it is the person behind the viewfinder that matters. My RX100 does what I need for "walk about". My NEX-6 & 5N with mainly Sony E zooms does for a day out without breaking the back and my A580/550 do the job with Sony/Tamron lenses when needing fast shooting. I have a video set-up with NEX-6/LA-EA2/Sony 18-250 and the new ECM-XYST1M microphone that provides excellent sound, good zoom reach and AF. You can do what you wish to do with Sony equipment (or most other makes). The only Sony offer that could tempt me would be a well priced combo of an updated NEX-6 with say 20Mp sensor and an improved EVF for sunny conditions coupled with the new 16-70 E zoom. I would then sell my NEX-5N.
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by alphaomega »

Some people don't think that the Sony NEX/mirrorless cameras were a good idea. There is an interesting post here on
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/new-sony ... ers-tests/
Ohm: “Though I may be in the minority here, I would like to share with Ai/S Nikon lens users the ins and outs of the Sony a7r, which I picked up just today. I’ve put up a few pictures showing Nikon lenses attacked to the a7r via the excellent Novoflex adapter.
I feel that the a7r will be a good system, but it isn’t ready to replace a dedicated Nikon SLR- at least not for manual focusing. Even with focusing aids, it seems that the a7r isn’t as good a platform with fast glass like the Nikkor 50/2 Ai. It works, but it works as via proxy- and at times slowly.
But I’m a still life audio photographer. The D800 got in my way. I have time to shoot and Sony’s live view is far better than Nikon’s. So is its wireless tethering options for iPhone and iPad. I use these tools as I set up a shot, often moving reflectors and flags a hundred times in order to get the right light.
Anyway, I am putting together a few thoughts (and images) of the a7r with the tools of my trade and will compile a list of do’s and don’ts for the system. I’m quite excited, but am not confident that the a7 or r will replace a good OVF system for fast manual glass usage for event photographers who are on flashes and strobes and in need of the best interface for their lenses.
You can find my growing summary here:
http://ohm-image.net/opinion/photophile ... d-astatnex
As the ability of particular the A7r becomes better known and adapters improve in quality and functionality there is clearly a niche market for this kind of camera. And provided there is a profit in selling the camera then as long as enough are sold a relative reduced sale of lenses will be worth enduring.
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by artington »

I have decided to buy an A7. For me the extra Mp of the A7R confers no IQ advantages as I never print above A3+.

Some here have discussed waiting to see how Sony develops the A-mount before considering this new FE range. No harm in that except, as the old saying goes, ars longa vita brevis. Also, as we all know, sensors are improving all the time and this is very evident on these new cameras.

I, too, had intended to stick with my NEX-7, as I don't see current mirrorless cameras as good vehicles for ultra-wide lenses and I get more than acceptable results at 35mm equivalent with my adapted Minolta MD 24/2.8 SLR lens. However, I did a test comparison using an adapted M-Rokkor 40/2 between my NEX-7 and an A7, borrowed from my local camera shop, and the IQ improvement with the latest sensor was surprising to me. Of course, the A7 has a lower pixel density than the NEX7 (as does the a7R) and I cannot comment on whether the improvement would have been so noticeable against, say, the NEX6. This is not to say that the NEX-7 has poor IQ - it's actually very good but the images out of the A7 were snappier, had better tonality and better colour. Noticeably so. I must add that I was unable to do a raw to raw comparison because I have not yet upgraded LR4 to LR5 so cannot convert the new files. Instead, I developed the NEX-7 raws and compared with A7 jpgs and the latter were better. The EVF on the A7 is also an improvement on that of the NEX-7 and the camera feels nicer in the hand too.

There's been a huge amount of comment in lots of places from people who clearly have not laid eyes on these let alone actually tried one out but the proof of the pudding is always in the eating and this one is very tasty indeed. I think it will sell by the lorry load.

Notwithstanding all this, I think it is fair to say that the new cameras, or more specifically the A7R, appear to have come as a bit of a disappointment to owners of wide-angled RF lenses who had hoped to use their little friends at the intended focal length on the new bodies and this may trigger some rearrangements in the market place. I imagine there will be a lot of wide angle RF lenses appearing for sale and also that prices of old manual SLR lenses, many of which are very compact and have excellent optical qualities, will continue to appreciate. I have just purchased for use on the a7 good copies of the renowned Minolta MD 35-70/3.5 Macro and the Canon FD 80-200/4 L lenses for a song by comparison with the prices of RF lenses or, indeed, A- or FE- mount lenses and am excitedly anticipating trying them on the A7 along with all my other Leica R, Minolta MC/MD and Olympus OM manual SLR lenses.
Last edited by artington on Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:55 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: FF announced

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As the A7R lacks the electronic first curtain, I think you might have made a wise choice.
I've seen some shutter shock threads on micro 4/3 cameras..this poster suggests it's an issue at some shutter speeds on the A7R

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52584736
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pakodominguez
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Re: FF announced

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artington wrote: I, too, had intended to stick with my NEX-7, as I don't see current mirrorless cameras as good vehicles for ultra-wide lenses and I get more than acceptable results at 35mm equivalent with my adapted Minolta MD 24/2.8 SLR lens. However, I did a test comparison using an adapted M-Rokkor 40/2 between my NEX-7 and an A7, borrowed from my local camera shop, and the IQ improvement with the latest sensor was surprising to me. Of course, the A7 has a lower pixel density than the NEX7 (as does the a7R) and I cannot comment on whether the improvement would have been so noticeable against, say, the NEX6. This is not to say that the NEX-7 has poor IQ - it's actually very good but the images out of the A7 were snappier, had better tonality and better colour. Noticeably so. I must add that I was unable to do a raw to raw comparison because I have not yet upgraded LR4 to LR5 so cannot convert the new files. Instead, I developed the NEX-7 raws and compared with A7 jpgs and the latter were better. The EVF on the A7 is also an improvement on that of the NEX-7.
During the Photo Plus Expo here in NYC, I had the chance to talk with Some managers at Sony, as well as a couple of photographers from their Artisans' program. Both told me that the sensor on these A7(R) cameras are really good. but that the big difference is on the processor. And they sold me the idea of upgrading not because the FF or the pixel count, but because the sensor-processor combo.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Well according to DxO (which I'm no fan of but hey some folks like it)
I'd say you've been told porkie pies Pako..

Sensor/processor combination big difference? Well looks like marketing v substance = not reality
Capture.JPG
(75.81 KiB) Downloaded 2626 times
As the old saying goes "don't believe sales talk"
Allowing for a margin of error in testing it's basically identical in terms of performance

I don't doubt there are some differences, in terms of the look (and I prefer Sony's look to Nikon's no question) as for sensor/processor combination, looks like Pako was buying a bottle of this :lol:
snake-oil.jpg
(48.55 KiB) Downloaded 2626 times
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pakodominguez
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by pakodominguez »

bfitzgerald wrote:Well according to DxO (which I'm no fan of but hey some folks like it)
I'd say you've been told porkie pies Pako..

Sensor/processor combination big difference? Well looks like marketing v substance = not reality
Capture.JPG
As the old saying goes "don't believe sales talk"
Allowing for a margin of error in testing it's basically identical in terms of performance

I don't doubt there are some differences, in terms of the look (and I prefer Sony's look to Nikon's no question) as for sensor/processor combination, looks like Pako was buying a bottle of this :lol:
snake-oil.jpg
It is interesting that you Barry use data from a source you don't like only when it backs the discourse you want to spread. So, you don't like DoX but because I can use them in order to say that the A7(R) is behind the Nikon D800(E) you embrace DoX...

Truth is that you Barry don't have a (real) clue about any of this cameras. You are, as usual, trolling...

Artington, who had here expressed his discontent with Sony, went to the shop and try it ad review the files and he have and objective idea of what this camera delivers. And apparently he will buy it!

BTW, I haven't buy the camera, and I don't know if I will buy it. Actual technology and Sensor-size doesn't allow Sony to offer a better AF in low light, and I need a camera for work, not just for the look... I've seen pics and prints from it and it looks quite good. So I can buy the idea of a sensor-processor tandem that is doing really well.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

salesman (plural salesmen)
A man whose job it is to sell things, either in a shop / store or elsewhere.
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