FF announced

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bfitzgerald
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

classiccameras wrote:Its obvious that all these news gizmos and magic wizardry, in these latest cameras is aimed at the younger technophobe who will lap it all up as yet another electronic play thing like his all singing all dancing mobile. Taking pictures will be secondary.
Ok, I'm being facetious, but I have to agree with Barry, give us a good basic stills taking machine and drop all the bo----cks.
To my friends 10 year old son, these high tech cameras are just another computer which the lad has mastered blind fold, to me its a 'black art' that I did not want to pay for in the first place but had no choice.


That's why I've been taking my Dynax 7 out slapped in some Ilford film last few days having a ball of a time (it's actually fun) Also have some colour neg to work through too.
We are spoilt as if paying a few pennies for a bit of film development is going to break the bank! I used to save up pocket money for weeks as a kid to buy a few rolls, lately I'm going "back to basics"

Yes the film 7 is an advanced camera, it's got some good stuff in there. But it's got great handling, any settings I need I can get to instantly and no distracting stuff going on at all. Nikon can keep their DF, and Sony can keep their A7 too :wink:

I do think that makers have gone overboard on gimmicks and pointless stuff. DK was right when he said "you don't need all that stuff"
I might even take that Hi matic or old Olympus compact I have, nothing to play with, no settings to twiddle around with or distract you

All you have to do is find something that looks interesting and worth taking a photo of!
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Greg Beetham
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

It’s interesting reading through the comments following the Kimio Maki interview more than the interview, people’s views on Sony are as diverse as Sony’s strategy is.

I don’t know how Sony can avoid the perception of ‘they are an electronics company that makes cameras’ when they have progressively converted the A-mount into something as electron-icky as possible; although admittedly they did make attempts to maintain retro compatibility in the process (with a few unannounced glitches). But you have to wonder what they are going to do to the A-mount next?
I would like them to fix something they broke seven years ago when they took over the KM body division, but that’s unlikely to ever happen now, not when they like to invent a new fad on a six monthly basis.

Who was it who said ‘there’s riches in niches?’ I think Sony is putting it into practice but they haven’t notice my niche for a while, maybe if you belong in an already used niche you get sidelined and forgotten?

I get the impression Sony already has a lot more customers than they know what to do with so they are unconcerned about those who have been sidelined because of their strategy.
Sony seriously needs to maintain the ‘core’ of the A-mount with at least one traditional DSLR model in the lineup, doing that would stabilize the line, increase credibility and diminish the ‘haphazard’ perception that many seem to have of Sony’s strategy with ILC’s. (Including me)
Greg
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bfitzgerald
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Re: FF announced

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Well Sony would want to sell a lot of A7's this Christmas that's for sure!

http://money.cnn.com/2013/11/01/investi ... ?hpt=hp_t3

http://www.engadget.com/2013/10/31/sony ... s-q2-2013/

They're still in big trouble as a company overall. I'm not sure if they can sustain their loss making divisions if they can't turn things around.
classiccameras
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by classiccameras »

Greg
You could say the same about Panasonic which is another large global electronics company who also make cameras, only difference is their camera division is doing quite well by camparison to Sony. I think the new Sony A7 cameras are going to do quite well and probably better than Olympus EM, but wait a while into next year and prices are bound to fall which will make them even more attractive. If any one was aiming their top of the range product to a niche market, its Olympus with their OMD EM cameras, bad move as there is no middle of the road budget versions for the less well off enthusiast.
I still remain confident about A mount next year.
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Greg Beetham
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Re: FF announced

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Not that it probably means much for the take-up of the A7 and A7r by those who had already decided to get one regardless; but I don’t remember a single camera model (Nikon Df) holding nearly 30% of clicks for a couple of days at dpr, that is impressive I think, but it is pity about the steep price. Even if it can work with past generations of lenses that price factor is going to hurt it I think, I’d be surprised if it turns into one of those rare ‘must have’ models.

The A7-A7r probably stand more of a chance of making a bigger impression than the Df in sales, but they will have to be a rare glitch-less Sony model to do it, if they get really good reviews they should sell ok, (they aren’t exactly cheap either when you add the price of the A-mount adaptor).
Greg

Ps Yes classiccameras (I’ve forgotten your name sorry, bad memory) on reflection I don’t think the A-mount is in any serious trouble for the time being, there seems to be quite a solid (if small) market for electonicky A-mount cameras and that should inspire Sony to dish up more of the same, or similar-ish.

I suspect the A7-A7r are more of an E-mount rescue model than an attack on the A-mount, there has been quite a continuous call for a FF NEX and I’m not sure if quite a few of those could convincingly explain why they even want one; but yes I agree that with the right lenses the A7r should give the D800 a bit of a run for its money, but Sony really needs to bring a glitch free camera…this time more than ever.
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by classiccameras »

Greg

Do you think for one minute that Sony actually take any notice of moaners and gripers like us, or suggestions aired on this forum. It would be interesting to find out just what market research methods they employ or who carries it out on their behalf.
In my opinion the SLT range of cameras [although the A58 was a hiccup] can stand up to most other brands in their respective price catigories and in some areas the A mounts will out perform some Canikons. You can bet your last pound [sorry Dollar] Sony are fully aware of this even though their recent strategy has been highly suspect. I'm expecting a new mid range A mount body next year!

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artington
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Re: FF announced

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Greg Beetham
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Re: FF announced

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Yes the results are impressive, I couldn’t see what lenses were being used in those image comparisons between cameras; they aren’t just comparing sensors when they do something like that they are also comparing lenses too but I couldn’t see that information accompanying the images.
Greg

Ps Pete the SLT’s are better than Canikons at some things for sure, but worse in others, battery duration is a weak point and system flash is a major problem when performance is compared, but Sony has delivered on AF accuracy and consistency, much better than Nikon has.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: FF announced

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Greg Beetham wrote:Yes the results are impressive, I couldn’t see what lenses were being used in those image comparisons between cameras; they aren’t just comparing sensors when they do something like that they are also comparing lenses too but I couldn’t see that information accompanying the images.
Greg

Ps Pete the SLT’s are better than Canikons at some things for sure, but worse in others, battery duration is a weak point and system flash is a major problem when performance is compared, but Sony has delivered on AF accuracy and consistency, much better than Nikon has.


After 5 bad Nikon AF bodies I won't disagree at all!
Nikon's AF performance is shocking, least based on my own experience. It's a real shame as in most other ways they have great cameras, flash system is superb can't fault it. But boy...AF wise, it's kinda sad to say a Km5d blows a modern Nikon away for AF, but that's exactly the case :mrgreen:

Yes IQ looks very good on the A7 samples, but I would expect nothing less. Will be interesting to see some reviews to find out the good/weaker points.
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Re: FF announced

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I was also impressed by the Imaging Resource IQ comparisons and in particular how the A7r compared with the 40MP Mamiya MF. I also noted one of the professionals reviewing the A7/A7r elsewhere that he was impressed by the Jpegs "out of the can". He thought Sony had resolved mostly all the issues. I find with my NEX-6 and RX100 that the RAW images are almost redundant. The Jpegs are very usable and much information can be recovered through use of shadow/highlight sliders. Mostly I cannot find any CR or fringing in the images. If there is occasionally a little in leaves at corners it cannot be removed further in PS. Rarely does Auto Tone make any real difference. I am pretty impressed.
I think a lot of Pro photographers will acquire the A7r. Not so sure about the penetration of the A7. Cannot really do much the CAN/NIK crowd cannot do with their current equipment. MF shooters will acquire the A7r as the lens range and options expand. The Mamiya goes to ISO1600. They will buy the A7r for higher ISO quality shooting and mobility. Just my gut feeling.
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by classiccameras »

I have noticed the Jpegs from my A37 are very good and require very little PP, Shadows and high lights can be easily manipulated with just my simple microsoft picture editing suite. Pictures are especially sharp out of camera if you dial in just +1 sharpening, although I leave this at 0 and sharpen in PP.

With my A57, things are not so clear cut with out of camera Jpegs and according to one source I read, the A37 being aimed at the entry level market has an improved Jpeg engine as its what most beginners will use, so it had to be good with all the punch of the compact P+S they just left. As with all Sony's, they really leap into life with good glass on the front which is making the best use of the sensor.
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by Heidfirst »

classiccameras wrote:Greg
You could say the same about Panasonic which is another large global electronics company who also make cameras, only difference is their camera division is doing quite well by camparison to Sony.
I think that you will find that Sony's camera division is in a better position than Panasonic's.
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by classiccameras »

I just read it it some where in a photo mag that Panasonic were doing better, but thinking back it was mostly for their bridge cameras which apparently are market leaders and have a tiny growth in comprison to other formats. Its good news for Sony and us Sony users if they are doing better than Panasonic. However, i'm a big supporter of all brands and its always a sad day for me when one of them struggles or goes under because its not good for the industry as a whole.
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Re: FF announced

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bfitzgerald wrote:I read the interview on DPR with Kimio Maki

My impression was that he came from the RX division, and so was going to talk that up. Not sure I learned much.
It's a bit of a mixed bag really.
RX100 yes I can see Sony spotted a gap in the premium compact sector, ie bigger 1" sensor and that wasn't a bad move at all


The problem was that Sony, and really all of the manufacturers, abandoned this segment for a long time. I think they figured people would upgrade to DSLRs, but then DSLRs are so large...
QX is a misfire from Sony, I just can't see people wanting to carry a lens around for a smart phone that's a DOA oddball effort

This was a slick idea. I have to admire them for trying. I don't see this as such a crazy idea, depending on price. Why make a camera with an LCD when you already carry a phone with an LCD?
RX10 I think is doomed on price alone, quality is good..but we're in £300 DSLR territory now, £1000 bridge camera just isn't going to work
RX1 - Rich boys toy, not mass appeal product niche, not really that relevant to the market.

A7 I get the thinking, appeal to many mount users sort of a universal camera, that's not a bad take to have and might do ok "if" Canon don't do a budget rebel FF body (which they will because it will sell in crazy numbers)

I wouldn't be so sure. Canikon seem bent on protecting the status quo.
A mount well his comments are too vague to really be of much use. I don't have a problem with the "innovation/try new things" but he never once mentioned the obvious. This is a system (and so is E mount) coming out with "exciting" new and different products does not always mean hitting the mark. Sony seem stuck on trying to appeal to new users (many of whom are heavily invested in Canikon), but not really fleshing out the system, ie flash, lenses and bodies that people will want to buy.

Sony had/has flashes and lenses. What do you mean? There's also a ton of legacy equipment that still works on newer bodies. I can recall shopping for a DSLR and realizing that if I got the Nikon, that would have limited lens choices, as they removed support for screw drive. But if you mean more obscure stuff like T/S lenses, sure - I think Sony can't afford to take on all of the little niches. Best get Canikon to be sure that "everything" is available, just in case.
He seems overly worked up and excited about "new stuff" when all we want is basic simple stuff!

Sony have not been able to attack Canikon effectively because they keep constantly changing, and not concentrating on the "system"
For all I care I'd have a FF sensor shoved into a Dynax 5d and that would be quite nice thanks very much, I don't need all this NFC, sweep pano, smiler shutter gimmicks and technology. Keep it simple, clean and affordable.


The camera is not a lot more expensive due to software "gimmicks". You can always ignore these features.

Meanwhile, it's Sony that comes out with the Nex-7 and the tri-navi control that seems well-suited for manual work!

If Sony wants to compete against Canikon, they need to have interesting and often superior features. I don't think they have been able to make much headway by competing straight on. Making a "simple" DSLR would probably be death, not giving any reason to select them over Canikon.
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Re: FF announced

Unread post by CharlieWebster »

A7r beats D800E in resolution:

http://www.chip.de/artikel/Sony-Alpha-7R-ILCE-7R-Profi-DSLM-Test_65234491.html

Sharpest Full Frame ever.
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