Using Linux for photography

[bakubo]

I am just wondering if anyone here is using Linux for their photography? Of course, I know that most people here are using Windows or Mac.

I used Linux for some pretty heavy-duty software development in 2002 -- Mandrake Linux/KDE -- so I have some Linux experience (not for photography though), but I am sure things have progressed a lot since then. I also did software development on Unix V6 back in the very early 1980s. I have been using various versions of Windows (95, XP, Vista) over the years and currently with Vista I use Photoshop CS2, Photoshop Elements 6, Paint Shop Pro X, Picture Window Pro 3.5, Neat Image, PTLens, Focus Magic, a few other free plug-ins, FastStone 3.9, and Portrait Professional 8. I think that is all.

Anyway, I was just wondering your thoughts about Linux and photography in August 2009?

By the way, I asked a similar question awhile back on another website, but I am hoping there are people here that might be able to comment. I hope this is the proper forum, but if it isn't then feel free to move it to the proper one.

[01af]

Even though I do like Linux for what it is as an operating system, I'd never waste a second on considering it for photography or image processing work. Photoshop doesn't run on Linux, so it's ruled out. As simple as that.

Of course you can do image processing on Linux if you absolutely want or need to. There are free raw converters (dcraw, UFraw, Raw Therapee a. o.), free image processors (The Gimp), and free databases (e. g. PostgreSQL) so you can create a capable image-processing environment for no money at all. Still ... no Photoshop. Thank you but no thanks.

-- Olaf

[braeside]

Not seriously, only on the EeePC for checking that I have backed up my files to the portable HD when away from home. I hope to replace that with an Apple MacBook Pro 13" soon however, then I can run Aperture.

[bakubo]

From what I have found so far there is Gimp, which looks quite capable, but is only partially 16-bit until the next version. There is also Showfoto which is newer and is 16-bit and Krita which is also 16-bit. Both of them look pretty good and quite capable, but Showfoto doesn't have layers yet. Actually, so much of Photoshop isn't all that applicable to photography for most people. Olaf, I am curious about which parts of Photoshop you find essential that aren't in other programs?

There is a program called digiKam that I have been reading about and it is an image management program which has a lot of parts to it and includes the Showfoto program integrated into it too. Also, raw conversion, of course. Anyway, I don't have an extra computer available right now to install Linux on so I am only researching.

I also discovered that you can run Windows PS plugins on Linux Gimp, at least some of them. Also, quite a few Windows programs can be run on Linux using Wine -- for example I found out that my PWP can do that -- although I don't like the PWP paradigm all that well.

[stevecim]

Bibble 4 and 5 run on Linux, I'm tempted to down load the trials and see how they run.

I've use linux at work a lot , have used it off an on for ever, but always end up back on Windows, would like to try OSX on my PC

[01af]

Olaf, I am curious about which parts of Photoshop you find essential that aren't in other programs?

Frankly ... errr ... I can't say. Because I hardly know the other programs. And that's part of the reason---for me---why I desperately want Photoshop: it's the program I am familiar with. Even though I am still a long way from a Photoshop guru, it was hard enough to acquire this degree of familiarity. Over the years, I have spent approx. EUR 500 on Photoshop literature, attended two Photoshop classes, and spent countless hours at my computer to try and to error.

And why did I start using Photoshop in the first place? Because Photoshop is not only the most complete image-processing program but because there is a wealth of literature, tutorials, tipps and tricks, and all kinds of plugins, actions, and scripts out there---online, in books, and in magazines---which almost always use Photoshop as their basis. It's not just the program, it's the community around it that made me choose Photoshop.

And finally there are a lot of features indeed which usually are missing in other programs, namely (but not limited to) full 16-bit support, Lab and CMYK colour models, soft-proofing, and scripting. I also like the seamless collaboration with Bridge and Camera Raw.

-- Olaf

[bakubo]

Olaf, those are all good reasons for you. If you go back to my original post though you will see I was asking if anyone here was using Linux for their photography. I wasn't trying to convince anyone else to switch to Linux. By the way, a few years ago I found the idea that there are lots of Photoshop tutorials, etc. more compelling for me than today. Although there is always more I can learn I now know enough to do most of what I generally want to do. I know which features of Photoshop and Paint Shop Pro I care about and which ones I don't.

I have been using Windows for my personal use for the last 12 years or so and have had Windows 95, Me, XP, and Vista on various desktops and notebooks. My main use is the internet/email and photography. I have been working on digital photos (scanned film or digital cameras) since 1997 so I know very well which features of my current software I use and consider important and which I don't. I am trying to find out if the existing software on Linux has what I want. So far, it looks pretty good, but not perfect of course.

There are several reasons I am looking at Linux (not necessarily in order of importance):

1. Windows is a huge target for various kinds of malware so there is a constant struggle to keep Windows updated with security fixes. Same for anti-virus software, firewall, etc. I realize that Linux is not immune to malware, but it is much less a target and, at least, in 2009 Linux just doesn't have much of a problem.

2. Although I am fairly happy with Photoshop CS2 the version of ACR it has won't accept my current camera's raw files and will not accept future camera raw files. Of course, I can give Adobe a few hundred dollars and get a new version of Photoshop. Then in a year or two do it again and then again and then again -- each time just because I need a new version of ACR. The story is often similar for other software. Sometimes it is because the version of software that worked on Win95 or WinXP doesn't work right with Vista or there are just new features and/or bug fixes I want. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with companies wanting to make money. Far from it. I am just saying that I like the idea of Linux and OSF so that *I* can get off that merry-go-round.

3. Every Windows computer I have ever owned has needed to have a clean Windows install at least once while I had it, sometimes more. After enough time the computer has started acting funky or some problem has required me to do the clean install. Installing Windows is usually not all that difficult *but* then I have to download and install many megabytes (usually hundreds of megabytes) of Windows updates. Also, when that is all done I have to reconfigure everything. Then the worst part starts. I have to get all my CDs and one by one install all of my applications. Besides the Windows authentication most of the apps also have various authentication procedures. Even some Photoshop plugins have it. This is a real pain in the butt. Then I have to download and install updates for all of them. Then I have to configure all of them. Over the years I have had to do this quite a few times. Assuming I have all the CDs and a fast internet connection and there are no problems (I'll get back to this) then it takes many hours of work. After all of this is done then I have to get all my data files off backup and put them back on the computer.

4. One time while installing Photoshop it just hung part of the way through. After a very long wait I finally rebooted and Windows was hosed. I tried various things and finally did a clean install of Windows. I have had other less serious problems from time to time when installing software. Not often, but a few times.

5. I travel a lot and often spend extended periods in one place or another. Except when I am doing backpack travel I also have my 17" notebook with me (like right now). I also have to carry the Windows CD and app CDs in case I have to go through the nightmare of step 3. This has happened to me. If I didn't have all this stuff then I would really be up the creek.

6. After I went from WinXP to Vista a couple of years ago I discovered that a few Photoshop plugins that worked fine with Photoshop and Paint Shop Pro on XP don't work with Photoshop on Vista -- Photoshop crashes. Strangely, those Photoshop plugins still work fine with PSP on Vista.

7. I also like that Linux has a great software development environment with multiple compilers, assembler, linker, debuggers, etc.. Also, MySQL and lots of other stuff. Who knows, I might try to write a plugin for Gimp or Showfoto or Krita.

In 2002/2003 I did software development on Linux for 15 months. I installed Mandrake Linux on a couple of machines and it was surprisingly easy. Most software I wanted was automatically installed. No authentication, no stacks of app CDs, etc. I never had to reinstall Linux and I don't recall Linux ever crashing. I don't know if it is the same now, but it seems from what I have heard that Linux is still pretty robust and solid. At any time, if I need to, I can download a new Linux. Probably wouldn't need to do that though. Software updates are easy to get. Raw processing software gets updated regularly to handle new cameras. New features and bug fixes in apps are free.

By the way, besides Wine which will allow some Windows programs to be run on Linux -- I think my Picture Window Pro 3.5 is one of them -- I have also found that some Windows Photoshop plugins can be run with Linux Gimp.

I realize that I may find a few things that I would still need Windows for. If so I would have a dual-boot system with probably most of the disk space allocated to Linux.

[Javelin]

Henry. after you do a clean install. make an image of your drive on an external or spare drive on the system. and periodically make anoher if everything is operating ok. you could be done step 3 in less than an hour including replacing from regular backups any documents you've created in between.

I do this with all the machnes under my care no matter the OS. I must say though that all my XP SP2+ and vista machines have been fine and I haven't had to do this, except for a stolen laptop, in quite a long time now.

[Dusty]

Henry, I don't do PP on linux, but run it for various machines I control or own. It is just as stable as ever, and as you know there are a plethora of free programs. I can't afford Photoshop right now and don't want to learn to use the Gimp, as it's still a nightmare. Perhaps the new interface they're designing may help.

Besides WINE there is Win4Lin, that lets you run XP in a window. Yeah, you still have to have XP, but at least you don't have to dual boot. There are also free virtual machine programs to let you do the same thing.

Take a run at it and then tell us all what you think.

Dusty

[harvey]

2. Although I am fairly happy with Photoshop CS2 the version of ACR it has won't accept my current camera's raw files and will not accept future camera raw files. Of course, I can give Adobe a few hundred dollars and get a new version of Photoshop. Then in a year or two do it again and then again and then again -- each time just because I need a new version of ACR.

I was in exactly that situation until I paid the Adobe upgrade tax to get CS4.

I would not be surprised if people go for Lightroom and Elements rather than get Photoshop.

But can't you just use DNG instead?

Harvey

[bakubo]

Henry. after you do a clean install. make an image of your drive on an external or spare drive on the system. and periodically make anoher if everything is operating ok. you could be done step 3 in less than an hour including replacing from regular backups any documents you've created in between.

I do this with all the machnes under my care no matter the OS. I must say though that all my XP SP2+ and vista machines have been fine and I haven't had to do this, except for a stolen laptop, in quite a long time now.

Thank you for the suggestion. I have thought about this before and it might help a bit with item 3. Lets say I do a complete reinstall like in item 3 and then immediately create the image on an external disk. Time passes, I install new software, I install Windows updates and product updates, change configurations for various things, add bookmarks for websites, new email addresses, etc. Then the time comes eventually when I need to fix Windows so I reformat the disk and go back to that image I made months ago or maybe even a year or longer. So much has changed since the image was made though there is still a lot of work to be done. Of course, from time to time I could make a new image, but then I would be making an image of a deteriorating machine and that is the whole point of the clean install. IT departments inside companies often do what you describe to fix an employee computer. They then walk away patting themselves on the back that they have saved the day and not caring that the employee then may have to reinstall various apps, get updates, reconfigure them, etc. The IT department "fixed" my pc one time by reimaging it to the standard company setup. Then I spent the next couple of days trying to get everything working again the way it was before the problem.

So, unfortunately I don't see this as a solution to item 3 and it doesn't address items 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, or 7.

[bakubo]

Henry, I don't do PP on linux, but run it for various machines I control or own. It is just as stable as ever, and as you know there are a plethora of free programs. I can't afford Photoshop right now and don't want to learn to use the Gimp, as it's still a nightmare. Perhaps the new interface they're designing may help.

I have never used Gimp so I can't say about the interface. I have read the documentation though to see what features it has and what it might be missing, but I didn't notice anything in there that made the interface seem particularly bad. I am curious. What did you find that made it a nightmare? By the way, there is a version called Gimpshop that I heard about. The page says:

"GIMPshop is a modification of the free/open source GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP), intended to replicate the feel of Adobe Photoshop. Its primary purpose is to make users of Photoshop feel comfortable using GIMP."

http://www.gimpshop.com/

Besides WINE there is Win4Lin, that lets you run XP in a window. Yeah, you still have to have XP, but at least you don't have to dual boot. There are also free virtual machine programs to let you do the same thing.

Thanks, I hadn't heard of that.

Take a run at it and then tell us all what you think.

Yes, I want to. My problem is that right now I don't have a spare pc around. I had thought about making my Vista notebook pc that I am using now a dual boot so I could try it, but I have decided I don't want to take any chances of screwing up my only computer right now. I have an old notebook pc and a desktop pc in Austin, but that doesn't help me now. I could easily buy a cheap pc here in Hawaii (new or used), but then in a month or two when we move on I would have to leave it. If at some point while I still have my current notebook I have to go through the hell of item 3 in my list above I will at that point load Linux and make a dual boot pc. My wife's notebook pc is a year older than mine so if she wants to get a new one then I could load Linux on hers (17", Pentium dual core 1.6ghz, 2gb ram, 100gb hd). I have to admit I am anxious to give all this a try. It isn't like thinking about switching camera systems since with Linux and all the apps it is free so if it doesn't work out there is no cost involved.

When I finally get a chance to try Linux and the apps for photography I will definitely report back.

[bakubo]

I was in exactly that situation until I paid the Adobe upgrade tax to get CS4.

Later when you get a new camera you will need to get CS5 or CS6. And so on.

I would not be surprised if people go for Lightroom and Elements rather than get Photoshop.

That doesn't help because you will still need to buy Lightroom updates when you have a new camera that is not supported by your older version. I have Photoshop Elements 6 now which I got just because the ACR it has handles A700 files. I have posted before about all the bugs in the interface/gui though that don't exist in PS CS2. PSE 6 is so flaky and frustrating to use because of the gui bugs. I don't know if these bugs are because it is on Vista or if they exist on XP too. A long time ago I posted a message about it on the Adobe forums and others said they had weird gui problems too. People said the Mac version also is buggy.

But can't you just use DNG instead?

I have considered it, but as you know there are downsides to using DNG also. Even if there weren't downsides it only partially addresses item 2 and doesn't address items 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7.

[bakubo]

Bibble 4 and 5 run on Linux, I'm tempted to down load the trials and see how they run.

I have heard good things about Bibble, but have never investigated it. I checked their website this morning and discovered that they are located in Austin and I have driven right by them thousands of times since they are located right in the area that I am. I never realized that. Next time I am in Austin maybe I will drop by and say hi. The one issue with Bibble on Linux is that then you are back on the merry-go-round of buying updates to support new cameras.

I've use linux at work a lot , have used it off an on for ever, but always end up back on Windows, would like to try OSX on my PC

What always brings you back to Windows? Why are you interested in OSX? Wouldn't it mean that you would have to go out and buy new apps?

[stevecim]

Bibble 4 and 5 run on Linux, I'm tempted to down load the trials and see how they run.

I have heard good things about Bibble, but have never investigated it. I checked their website this morning and discovered that they are located in Austin and I have driven right by them thousands of times since they are located right in the area that I am. I never realized that. Next time I am in Austin maybe I will drop by and say hi. The one issue with Bibble on Linux is that then you are back on the merry-go-round of buying updates to support new cameras.

I tried it on windows looks OK, but not for me at this stage, since I have low end lenses, my images suffer from CA alot, and so far I've found nothing cleans up CA has well has DxO Optics Pro 5.3

I've use linux at work a lot , have used it off an on for ever, but always end up back on Windows, would like to try OSX on my PC

What always brings you back to Windows? Why are you interested in OSX? Wouldn't it mean that you would have to go out and buy new apps?

1. The fact that Linux is always in a state of change. Commerical programs can never keep up. They quickly fall behind and with 12-18 months you will fine that many of them will not work with later version of Linux. The only Comerical programs that do seem to keep up are one based around OpenSource software. This aways changing target is one of the reason why very few companies develop software for Linux. Linux have started to slow down their releases of the kernel which has helpped a bit.

2. Driver support: Linux just does not have the same driver support that Windows XP has, Vista/Windows 7 is more like Linux in terms of driver support. A big step back wards from XP. when new devices come out you tend to waite longger for Linux drivers and in some cases it never happens. i.e I have a Canon flatbed scanner and Canon do not release the infomation needed to write drivers for it, so no drivers have ever appeared for it on Linux and now there are not even drivers for Vista/windows 7. So my near new flatbed scanner is just a paper weight.

3. Even with Opensource programs, you will find that you will always have to keep upgrading your base installation.
many times has new features are added to programs, those new features rely on new features found in the newest version of core "Linux/GNU" librarys some times you can upgrade just the libraries needed sometimes you need to upgrade the entier OS.


4. You still need to be careful around security, even more so with broadband, it might be harder to "hack" into a linux box (I do think a badly setup linux box is easier to hack into then a badly setup XP box) but when it happens the hacker normally ends up with root access and complete control of the PC. I've seen Linux servers become "owned" by script kiddes within 24 hours of being connected onto the Internet.

Henry, the reason I'm interested in OSX is for me it's the best of both world, It's a UNIX based OS where I can run a lot of opensource and has a great GUI which is supported by more commerical applications.


With regards to the dreaded reinstall windows /restall apps around about, I think a solution is virtual apps.
This is what I'm starting to play with now. For now I'm playing with Novells Virtual Apps product.

What I do with this, one I setup a clean install of windows XP on a virtual machine, then install Novells Virtual Apps.

I then install a program I want to virtualize, say Open Office, install it, configure it the way I want, then I convert it into a virtual app, what happens is all the files that gets installed and all the registery keys all get put into a single file. I can then take that single file are run it on any XP pc, no installation needed, it just runs and runs in it's own sandbox .

The idea is I have a DVD, with all the programs I run converted into virtual apps that are all click and run no installing needed, so when I re-install Windows XP, to get all my programs back I just need to copy them back from the DVD, in theory