PMA round up

[bfitzgerald]

I'm sure not even Sony are brave enough to dump DSLR's, but they can be unpredictable at the best of times.
ILC's don't replace DSLR's (well not for most), they offer something different.

[Greg Beetham]

Hmmpf, let's see if I'm getting this accurately, Sony are going to attempt to persuade us (DSLR) owners/users, that this proposed new trincket with it's worse still taking ability, is a step 'UP' from a DSLR? Now I see where the 'make.believe' comes in...
The market segment where these things belong is in between P&S's and DSLR's, and the camera type that they will replace is those fixed lens SLR lookalike cameras IMHO.
Greg

[bfitzgerald]

Greg I'm not suggesting the mirrorless models replace DSLR's, some micro 4/3 users might though. And indeed, no doubt some folks might skip a DSLR and get a mirrorless one.

But I seriously doubt many DSLR users are going to dump all their gear for a probably cybershot basic APS-C Sony model.
I think they are alternatives for "some people", but mostly seem aimed at the level of the old style bridge models, higher end compacts, and possibly superzoom users. They fill the gap between higher end compacts/superzooms, and DSLR's. IMO they don't replace the reflex camera.

I'd certainly take a look for specific types of shooting, travel light etc. But not a hope I'd go wandering around a church in low light with a laggy EVF.

[alphaomega]

I note Barry Fitzgerald's comments just above but I would refer readers to this:

Panasonic Lumix DMC-G2 announced and previewed

on http://www.dpreview.com/news/1003/10030 ... onicg2.asp
and here
http://www.dpreview.com/news/1003/10030 ... onicg2.asp
This is a serious product with Leica lenses. Once they build up a larger selection of Leica optics this would become a serious competitor to whatever Sony intends to do in this sector and they are currently streets ahead of Sony. In fact I would be strongly tempted to switch to something like this in the longer term to get avay from having DSLRs and my smaller Panasonic LX2/3. I just uploaded some LX3 pictures on Alamy and I was again amazed at the quality of these upsized to 48Mb and viewed at 100%. Incredible considering the size of the sensor. This combination of Panasonic electronic know-how with Leica optics is seriously capable and Silkypix does a good job converting RAWs.

[alphaomega]

I sure made a mess of that one just above.
And here should have been:
http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/P ... index.html
Sorry about that.

[bfitzgerald]

The G10 appears to be a cheaper version of the G1, with a worse EVF, but with video added.
G2 is likely to be hitting into mid range and up DSLR's prices, I'm sure it's got some pull for video fans, but as a stills camera it's not really able to compete in this area.

I sure hope they sorted out their banding issues too.

Also the lenses are not Leica badged, evidently something to do with corrections etc in camera.
The addition of these models is more incremental rather than revolutionary, I'm sure Panasonic are doing pretty well overall, and I respect them (bar their battery firmware antics..shameful IMO), they are carving out a market for themselves. Problem is, that market is going to get pretty crowded shortly.
They are clearly streets ahead of Sony, as they don't have an actual product for sale right now. We'll have to wait and see how and what Sony bring to the table, or rather what sells well.

[peterottaway]

I am beginning to think that a number of Alpha users out there are beginning to suffer from cabin fever.

There is a desperate obsession with grabbing at every press release and rumour that is generated by any company that is connected to photography, and then the product is going to be at least twice as good as the press release implies. At the same time any info put out by Sony is a load of doggie-doo that even if it is released it will never amount to anything.

Yes after Sony has released a number PnS style D-SLR that didn't hit too many peoples idea of a sweet spot, reasonable criticism and disappointing sales are not only to be expected but totally deserved. But to expect as your right that Sony must prove its worth to you by producing not only products that cover the ranges of every other manufacturer out there but to steal the Apple adage of " Think Different " at the same time is just plain silly.

When the Olympus Pen was announced I had high hopes. As Barry F has pointed out, none of the micro 4/3 cameras are that wonderful with their focusing and I could offer other criticisms of them. In the end I purchased a Contax G 2 which IS limited in that it is a film camera not digital, most of the lenses are primes not zooms, no video etc. Now in 5 years time that will be a dumb decision even for me,but for now it does what I want it to do and very well.

[Greg Beetham]

Greg I'm not suggesting the mirrorless models replace DSLR's, some micro 4/3 users might though. And indeed, no doubt some folks might skip a DSLR and get a mirrorless one.

But I seriously doubt many DSLR users are going to dump all their gear for a probably cybershot basic APS-C Sony model.
I think they are alternatives for "some people", but mostly seem aimed at the level of the old style bridge models, higher end compacts, and possibly superzoom users. They fill the gap between higher end compacts/superzooms, and DSLR's. IMO they don't replace the reflex camera.

I'd certainly take a look for specific types of shooting, travel light etc. But not a hope I'd go wandering around a church in low light with a laggy EVF.

Goodness graciousment Barry, I'm not suggesting that you're suggesting such a thing. What I'm wondering is, (the crucial thing IMHO), what price point is Sony going to bring these new A-mount? EVIL/LV/VIDEO/(STILL) thingys on line at. That will determine where Sony thinks they are positioned in the overall scheme of things, between compacts and real cameras (DSLR's), (replacing the Bridge cameras), or mixed in with the DSLR's (pricewise), or yet again, priced above most of the current entry level model DSLR's...and to find that out we'll have to wait until Sony releases them, then the reviewers can have look at them as well...should be interesting, for reviews that is, and just how intersting will depend on the price to a great extent IMHO.
Greg

[bfitzgerald]

At a guess I'd say a bit more than high end compacts..let's say the LX-3 cost £400 at launch, around there possibly up to £500, unlikely to be much higher than that.

But then we have Samsung, who are notorious for price slashing on products..if they get their NX down to sub £400 prices if not even lower, that could make for an interesting situation. Out of all of this, I see some major pressure on high end compacts, with their small sensors, and fairly high prices..these ILC models will pretty much kill them off. Maybe Canon will do a G series ILC, seems an obvious route to take, and evolution for the product line.
I actually think it's a good thing in a way, we've been stuck with overpriced higher end compacts with small sensors for too long, least now we might get something to talk about IQ wise. Long term I'm not convinced that makers will be selling a massive range of lenses, ILC seem entirely unsuited to longer focal lengths, most of the fun seems to be had mounting older lenses, or pancakes.

[Wes Gibbon]

I see some major pressure on high end compacts, with their small sensors, and fairly high prices..these ILC models will pretty much kill them off.

Maybe one of the attractions of high-end compacts is that they don't have interchangeable lenses - easier to carry around if you don't have to worry about where to keep your additional lenses.

However, my understanding is that ditching the mirror makes it possible to make lenses not only more compact, but also better optically, particularly at the wide end (the rear element can be closer to the sensor). I believe that the best Leica M-series lenses are reckoned to be superior to SLR lenses for that reason. The new technology could challenge established systems both low-end and high-end for ultimate quality.

The times they are a' changin', and with video, electronic viewfinders and more, we haven't seen the last of it. The slr (film and digital) has reigned supreme for decades, but will it still do so in five years time? If not, there is the opportunity for non-Canikon 'outsiders' with huge resources (e.g. Sony, Panasonic, Samsung) to grab a substantial chunk of the market in any new technology.

As always, change is exciting, challenging - but expensive!

[bossel]

So I could just get one of these new Sonys together with an appropriate CZ 35/1.4 or /2 and I have the ultimate, compact & lightweight street-shooting engine
Plus an adaptor to mount my (future?) 70-400...must look quite funny

[bfitzgerald]

Well I can't predict what happens over time.
I don't see a good OVF as outdated myself, not sure why some folks want to kill something that is useful.
No doubt video use will increase, but in honestly..I have little interest, bar a play about.

Size, well you have to use these things, and hands interact with cameras, there are limits to how small you can go, or even should go. I've never found size an issue for SLR's, compacts serve different needs. If we have no choice..that's nothing but a bad thing as far as I am concerned.
Sometimes things change, not always for the better. Look at the compact market, spot the viewfinder, have fun not being able to see in bright sunlight! Not good..lol

I've no problems with larger sensor compacts, with fixed lenses myself. But not much happening so far.
I would not expect Canon and Nikon and other companies, to give up their DSLR business that easy. Is simply adding an EVF going to please people? The only complaints seem to come from 4/3 fans..who desire to have everything done for them, WYSIWYG. I find EVF's a barrier to the subject, and an unwelcome one, I can use them..but don't really like doing so.

[Greg Beetham]

There's a few questions lurking around the back of my mind on these new ones..

Is ISO and WB going to be relegated to being totally Auto?
Can these ILC's do RAW?
Will AF be fully functional during Video mode? one would assume with the absence of an AF motor that to have AF one would be restricted to using the new, not very impressive constuction wise, (but quite good optically, apparently), SAM lenses.
What power supply are they goning to use? large sensors that do video, AF on large lenses, constant rear display panel, EVF, and the accompanying processing/storage is going to need serious battery power.
Will the LV be a WYSIWYG system? that can AF and display DOF? like the non battery consuming OVF can on my 'old' DSLR design.
Will there be a method of preventing dust getting on the much more exposed sensor?
Will there be SSS?
There's probably a few more, that I can't remember right now...
Greg

[Dr. Harout]

There's a few questions lurking around the back of my mind on these new ones..

Is ISO and WB going to be relegated to being totally Auto?
Can these ILC's do RAW?
Will AF be fully functional during Video mode? one would assume with the absence of an AF motor that to have AF one would be restricted to using the new, not very impressive constuction wise, (but quite good optically, apparently), SAM lenses.
What power supply are they goning to use? large sensors that do video, AF on large lenses, constant rear display panel, EVF, and the accompanying processing/storage is going to need serious battery power.
Will the LV be a WYSIWYG system? that can AF and display DOF? like the non battery consuming OVF can on my 'old' DSLR design.
Will there be a method of preventing dust getting on the much more exposed sensor?
Will there be SSS?
There's probably a few more, that I can't remember right now...
Greg

The answer is: wait and see.
But I can bet they'll do RAW.

[Greg Beetham]

Geez Doc, It's much more fun guessing, and then later seeing who was correct.
Hmmm you reckon RAW is a go...interesting, movies as well? or just the stills? (the stills apparently will consist of stacked frames, so popular opinion has it).
Greg