DPreview guys in a twist again

[David Kilpatrick]

I don't think many current dPreview forum folk know about Photoclubalpha or have followed my posts, or this forum.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read. ... e=36514234

There is no serial data signal needed, only 5v between two of the pins in the flash shoe to signal 'flash ready'. Sony has been asked to provide such an adaptor, or enable auto gain, by me and many others. They appear to be completely unaware of the nature of studio flash, modelling lights, or the need for this.

The A55/33 won't work with studio flash but there is an answer. Buy an old 520, 5400 or similar camera top flash which has manual power setting down to 1/16th or less. Nonsense being written in their forum about setting the in-camera flash to 1/128th power etc is not even being answered by anyone who knows anything at all.

The in-camera flash has preflash, unavoidable. It is possible to buy studio flash which can be programmed to trigger correctly (Elinchrom BRxi, for example) or various Chinese triggers which are programmable the same way as optical slaves which fire the studio flash on the 2nd, 3rd pulse (etc). You can then use a small deflector (better than a bit of film - I just tape a bit of white paper at an angle to send the light into the room, but not at the subject) on the built-in flash.

A cheap old Minolta 52001, 5400xi or similar gun with single flash manual output programmed on the flash, not the camera, makes a perfect trigger and can be fitted with an IR filter if you like. With this type of flash fitted, the viewfinder will work.

David

[mike2008]

It's quite remarkable that Sony have still not addressed this problem, which is even more egregious clearly on the EVF based cameras. I wonder if they will get it right for the A77. The solution you suggest is fine, but such a work around is a little unseemly for a new camera. It should work OK out of the box.

[dvincent]

I had posted in the thread, and I had mentioned that the adapters won't work because they're missing the serial data pins. They simply don't exist, so they can't provide any kind of voltage or data at all. Was just trying to save the guy some money and grief.

I'm of the opinion that it should be a menu item on the camera to turn off exposure simulation and use display priority (a la KM A2), and was likely an oversight. I can hear the engineers now... "Who'd use this camera in a studio, am I right?"

[David Kilpatrick]

It is not a serial data pin as far as my info goes. It is a simple 5v charge across two pins, and those pins are present in the Sony adaptors and in the third party ones. All that is needed is for the adaptor, when switched on, to provide the voltage which signals flash ready (it's been the same basic signal voltage ever since the introduction of the shoe, I gather).

The serial data pins are only used for the control signals and TTL/preflash etc. The flash ready, which would automatically set the camera to 1/160th and enable auto VF gain, is a very simple fix which should have been made.

David

[dvincent]

But the Sony adapters don't have all four pins on their feet. The FA-HS1AM only has a ground and sync pin, as opposed to the older Minolta FS-1100 which as you know has all four, but no "flash ready" circuitry since it's just a passthrough. Flash Ready is pin F2 on Michael's diagram. How would you signify "flash ready" with only sync and ground?

http://www.mhohner.de/sony-minolta/flas ... hp#newshoe

Even then, you've said in the past that flash ready requires a serial protocol handshake.

The Flash Ready signal provided by guns is not a closed circuit or a voltage, it is a serial protocol handshake message between camera and flash. Therefore it’s not simple to rig up an adaptor to make it do the same job as the 5600/5400.

They'd have to redesign the adapter to fix it by adding the extra two pins and whatever circuitry is necessary to signify flash ready, even if it is just 5v to pin F2, which is why the software fix is preferable. Cheap and easy compared to making a new shoe adapter.

[Greg Beetham]

I'm not following exactly what the kerfuffel is about, couldn't the A33 use an F56-F58 in M mode mounted on the hotshoe to trigger the slaved studio lights/flashes? (I heard that 'some' earlier model flashes just do a full dump when used on DSLR's, so the ones DK listed might be fine but others might not, you certainly wouldn't want a dump on any preflash signal)
I never bought any LV model so far and most likely will not buy any EVF one either so I'm not really familiar with how they work with flash (past and present model flashes), in a studio situation, or the limitations of them.
Greg

[dvincent]

I'm not following exactly what the kerfuffel is about, couldn't the A33 use an F56-F58 in M mode mounted on the hotshoe to trigger the slaved studio lights/flashes? (I heard that 'some' earlier model flashes just do a full dump when used on DSLR's, so the ones DK listed might be fine but others might not, you certainly wouldn't want a dump on any preflash signal)
I never bought any LV model so far and most likely will not buy any EVF one either so I'm not really familiar with how they work with flash (past and present model flashes), in a studio situation, or the limitations of them.
Greg

Yes, it could, but that doesn't help if you want to use Pocketwizards or other radio triggers on the hot shoe.

[Greg Beetham]

An A33 used in a studio situaton with pocket wizards...probably not something I'd expect too see, but otoh it's about time they got it sorted, it's not as if this is an unusual type of expectation. The camera manufacturers should have brought out their own hot shoe radio and slave triggers by now. A radio trigger on the camera and a receiver for the flash to fit onto, it couldn't be that hard too make surely.
I'm wondering if one of these might help the pocket wizard, http://safe-sync.com/Sony_Alpha_A100_A2 ... e_sync.htm I haven't gotten around to trying one myself...yet.
Greg

[David Kilpatrick]

Sorry, I am confusing issues. The flash ready signal should work on a straight voltage, but the pin is also used for serial data; whether it would function on the voltage alone I'm not sure, but the earlier FS-1100 four-pin will, I think, pass the (serial-data free) flash ready signal from guns like the 4000AF to the later camera bodies.

One new adaptor only is needed, it would require a small cell to power it, and an on-off switch, plus a PC socket (for cabled studio flash) and a hotshoe for PocketWizard or Skyport etc. Sony's failure to make this adaptor has rendered the A300, A330, A350, A380, A450, A500, A550, A560, A580, A55 and A33 all non-functional in a situation where a combination of live view and manual exposure is needed for studio flash with modelling lights, and also for macro flash with modelling lights (or without, as macro flash work often uses daylight for focusing).

David

[Greg Beetham]

It might depend on what mode and settings the camera has been set too, and what lens is on the camera as well as to how the flash system behaves, maybe even more so with today’s LV-EVF cameras.
It's easy too forget necessary things when working with today’s complex but not very flexible flash systems, (although they work well within their restricted design space) and that can have a big bearing on how things work.
Once upon a time, (recently) I was using my A700 in M mode with the F56 on top too trigger two Metz45's with flash type slave triggers on stands either side of a still life subject. I could not get the result I wanted (zero shadows) now matter how I set the Metz's.
In the end I had them about one foot away from the vertical white acryic sheet on either side at near maximum power ( 25 ISO, the camera was on 400 ISO if I remember correctly) and still no go. It was only later that I realized I had forgotten too set the F56 to M mode also....duh! it was still on TTL and it and the camera were both compensating for the hefty almost point blank dump of two powerful flashes during the exposure, and still giving virtually the same result as I began with. Ok exposure wise, but had a light grey shadow on the base acrylic sheet directly in front of the subject..... I had a bottom flash pointing up to do just that of course (get rid of the shadows) but it wasn’t up to the task at just about any point, being only an old Starblitz 36, and by the time I’d got the Metz’s down too 100 ISO the shadow seemed to be getting worse if anything, not better, but still the penny didn't drop....
Greg

ps. I have newfound respect for the TTL system in the A700, even if I couldn’t outsmart it accidentally while half asleep. Actually I'm still a little mystified as to how it was doing what it was doing, the only thing I can come up with is; the TTL system was shutting off the sensor at proper exposure at about 5 milliseconds even though the shutter was still wide open, and would still be for another 240 odd milliseconds.

[Neonsquare]

Ok - let's try if I got this right:

The older liveview alphas (from 300/350 up to 550) didn't gain the liveview in M-Mode. So if you do e.g. 1/125s, F8, ISO200 on a Alpha 350/550 you won't see much indoors. If one switches over to A the A350/A550 will gain up (by increasing time to 1/60s) and liveview is usable. On the A550 one also can press the MF-Focus-Check Button to get gained up liveview from the sensor - this is what I used on the A550 alot when doing studio work.

The new SLT behave much the same way like those before? They do not gain up the liveview in the viewfinder like in the MF-Focus-Check? So the only way to see something in the viewfinder would be to switch to A-Mode or put an external flash unit on it?

I'm using RF602 radio triggers for my flashes the transmitter doesn't set a flash ready signal to the camera if I put it with a pixel TF-325 adapter in my A550 - so there would be no viewfinder gain on the A55. On the A550 I could use the OVF and MF-Focus-Check - but not so on the A55. I see two workarounds to this:

1) Use A-Mode for setup and shoot in M
I use the A-Mode for setting focus and frame and then switch over to M just to setup my lighting settings and take the shot.
2) Put my Pixel TF-323 on top of the A55 which gives me a PC sync socket and an iISO socket on top. Put my Metz 48 with iISO on top of this to get a "flash ready" signal and therefore a gained up viewfinder (*sigh*). Now use a PC sync cable between the TF-323 adapter on the camera and the RF602 transmitters PC sync socket. Power down the Metz as much as it gets and use as before but in manual mode. The downside is that this whole setup is quite a lot stuff to carry along with the A55.

Am I wrong?

cheers,
Jochen

[David Kilpatrick]

The Metz fix sounds possible, but clumsy.

There is a simpler solution, which is to buy an intelligent optical slave. Here's a page with many at the bottom:
http://www.weinproducts.com/safesyncs.htm
With these units, you can just use the pop-up flash on the A33/55 in A mode, setting the aperture as required (but you can't control the shutter speed, it will default to 1/60th-1/160th depending on the ISO setting and available light).

I use this method with the NEX-5. I don't put a filter over the flash, I just make a small 'upward deflector' from white paper and stick it to the flash. It prevents any direct light reaching the subject, but provides enough to trigger the 'sync programmed' flash perfectly.

David

[Neonsquare]

Hm...
The Metz actually supports the Sony Remote Protocol - would the following setup be possible too:

1) Metz on top of Pixel TF324 to get a PC-port.
2) PC sync cable to the RF602 transmitter.
3) A55 with popup flash in WL-Mode to trigger the Metz which triggers the transmitter which triggers all receivers?

I never did work with sync cords - would this work? Does the Metz give a sync signal on the TF324's PC-port or is this PC-port only triggered by a cam?

Why do you need to put the NEX in A-Mode? Wouldn't M-Mode work too and also allow to set the shutter speed? I used the A550 with my Metz 48 AF-1 using Sony remote flashing before I got the RF602s; It did work in M-Mode too.

cheers,
Jochen

[kstyle888]

I got myself an A33 last Saturday, only to return it on Monday, because of its inability to boost live view in M-mode. 90% of what I do are studio shoots, model shoots in particular.

6 years ago I bought a DSC-F828, which did all of this without any problem. Got myself an A350 2.5 years ago, thinking it would do this as well, but it didn't. Big disappointment. When I read about the A33 a while ago, I thought: hey, EVF only. This must be the "real" follow up to the F828. Sony wouldn't want people to shoot completely in the dark. My hopes were high. But you know the result...

So I'm hoping for a firmware upgrade. If the A33 can boost its live view, I'll get one again. The F828 had a simple rule: when using flash, boost live view (as even any compact camera will do). And it had a simple menu option "Hotshoe on/off", so you could choose to use the internal flash, or an external flash. (And it had a hassle free pre-Konica-Minolta standard hotshoe).

Anyway, I gave up on all the workarounds to use the A33 in the studio, as I use different studios all the time. I try to use a radio trigger whenever possible or even PC cable. Optical trigger is a last resort. I played around with using the internal flash as trigger, but it wasn't possible to turn off the pre-flash, so bye bye sync. Composing an image in another mode and switch to M to take the picture isn't really an option in a model shoot (no tripod). And using an expensive external flash to use as a trigger in its manual mode was a bit of overkill to me and only a partial solution, to a problem that shouldn't be one in the first place...

Let's hope for firmware fix (or a new hotshoe adapter by Sony, although that would be very expensive) for what is IMO a bug in the firmware. Sony, just add a Live view boost on/off option...

Patrick.

[David Kilpatrick]

The NEX in M-mode also gives you an exposure preview - a dark screen! A mode sets auto screen gain, as it does on the A33 and A55.

I do not think the flash will trigger back through a shoe adaptor, it's a one-way process.

David