Ken Rockwell SLAMS the A55

[bfitzgerald]

Still not convinced they had the parts for the A100 and most of the bits subsequently removed would actually take time and costs to do so. Most of the niggle points are not hardware based anyway..such as DOF could be programmed to any button, AEL spot toggle is simply a firmware feature. I'm not entirely sure on the MLU aspect either simply because the schematics of the A700 shutter looked so close to non MLU ones.

As they say if it ain't broke don't fix it. Honestly Sony are behind rivals in quite a few areas such as in camera raw development, filters, customisation, jpeg NR processing choices. I don't need all that stuff but they cut things back too much removing some genuinely useful features for some shooters. P shift is another firmware only chop job..even the cheapie A200-350 had that but it's suddenly classed as a higher end body spec now. For those looking for feature rich will find themselves left wanting on many Alpha models.

This might be a circular argument but I'm a bit surprised that some folks including DK seem happy to overlook some of these points. Don't ask don't get as far as I'm concerned raising these issues does help other users even if you don't care about a particular one.

[pakodominguez]

This might be a circular argument

(...)

but I'm a bit surprised that some folks including DK seem happy to overlook some of these points. Don't ask don't get as far as I'm concerned raising these issues does help other users even if you don't care about a particular one.

I think that, if you don't need those features, or you find a way to overcome it, is not a biggie anymore.
I work most of the time in M mode. Some times I do A mode and the AEL button do the thing I need, even if I still have some reflex from the time I used Nikon. I think is part of my spirit, I try to adapt and keep going.

Regards

[bakubo]

Sony probably have to build every item new from scratch because with every camera, the hardware changes. It's different from programming for a Windows standard environment. Apart from that Sony have to test every part of the software and that costs a lot of time and money.

It would be very unusual and inefficient for Sony to do their software that way but, of course, none of us know what they do. Typically you would have a device independent software infrastructure that contains most of the functionality with an abstraction layer under that with hardware dependent code under that. Think of Linux, Android, and probably the software in many cell phones, cameras, etc. New hardware needs the hardware dependent part to be redone or modified, but the higher level layers don't need changes. Features that aren't desired or possible that are in the higher level layer can be turned off either with software flags or to avoid easy hacking that might turn those flags on just build with those code sections left out (often with conditional compiler flags or even just commenting out the code).

As for testing, yes I sure hope Sony tests all software builds meant to be released to customers. That is normal for software whether brand new or reused, but even so bugs slip through. Not all testing and quality control is equal though. Sony may be better or worse than some other company.

[alphaomega]

Barry Fitzgerald rehashes all his complaints about Sony's omissions yet again and finishes off with

This might be a circular argument but I'm a bit surprised that some folks including DK seem happy to overlook some of these points. Don't ask don't get as far as I'm concerned raising these issues does help other users even if you don't care about a particular one.

I am not convinced that DK has overlooked any of the omissions but he has written in detail about how the NEX-5, A900 and A55 combo provides everything he needs for his type of photography and he has a wide range of interests. He can use his A mount lenses on all including the NEX-5 with the Sony adapter. So I am sure that he knows what these cameras can and cannot do and they satisfy him. Equally all my current Sony cameras satisfy my requirements.
Now, I don't understand why Barry did not sell his A200 and purchased a new A700 when the remaining stocks could be bought for £500 or less. He would have got a fine camera with more or less the same sensor as his new Pentax and he would not have had to buy new lenses. He would have had P shift and most of the other "Sony omissions" and he would have been a happy chappy with a big OVF to boot. When the world wide sales figures become available we will see who boobed. If Sony's market share increases substantially on the back of NEX-3/5 and A33/55 it won't be them that have "dropped the clanger".

[bfitzgerald]

The A700 is a pointless purchase not because it's not a good camera, but it's probably the last of it's type. I'm not going near any SLT models I have absolutely no interest in them. Anyway the 12mp CMOS of the A700 is beaten handily with the newer CMOS sensors.

The only viable option was the A580 but the price was a bit high and it's still got some annoying quirks. As for reviewers I like them to take the gloves off now and then..if they don't that's their own choice. I think the A55 got an easy ride on most reviews. The only reason I kept the A200 was when the 5d dies I have a digital body to use with my lenses, and it's worth not very much s/h anyway.

Now if Sony actually bothered to make a real A700 successor with a real OVF then that might be a reason to stick around. SLT won't do here I'm afraid.

[Dusty]

I wonder how much it costs to take out a feature?

Sony probably have to build every item new from scratch because with every camera, the hardware changes. It's different from programming for a Windows standard environment. Apart from that Sony have to test every part of the software and that costs a lot of time and money.

With modern ASICs and all the models using the Bionz engine, I doubt that there's much re-writing going on. The new chips are really amazing in their ability to do all kinds of tricks the old ones never could. Even 10 years a go, when I was doing some of this stuff, we got new chips that meant all of our old code could be basically preserved by telling the chip to emulate the old chips for those particular functions, and add new functions emulating other chips.

Code bloat is prevalent today because of modular usage and re-using code that you might not need, but it does one function and you don't want to write that as a new module. But code bloat is countered by faster chips with much more addressable space, so it's not a big deal unless you want the max in performance. If so write everything in assembly language!

Dusty

[twm47099]

Minolta was also known for removing basic and "trademark" features from their lower (5 level and lower) level cameras and took a lot of heat over it - I think that started the bad reputation that Minolta couldn't shake. (That changed when the 7 and 5 came out, but then it was too late.) My AF5000 only had P and M modes. The lowest level i camera only got S and A mode if you bought the cards. The lowest level xi camera couldn't use all the cards. The XTsi (505si Super) didn't have wireless flash in the US (it was added in later models of that camera due to the consumers screaming). That camera also didn't have MLU, DOF-P, rear sync, a metering scale, or P-shift. Although it took very nice shots, as I used it and found more things I couldn't do with it, I almost left Minolta (then they released the 7 and I stayed.)

tom

You are right of course but that was then and this is now. Minolta did sort themselves out mostly with the 5 series which were well featured (less so the 4 and the 3L was best forgotten) At least they had learnt their lesson by the time the digital bodies came along.

No reason for Sony to repeat this mistake I honestly do think their feature stripping has cost them some users even if they are reversing that now (to a point not all of it) Nikon are actually one of the worst of all there are a lot of bits missing on the D5000 and D3100 quite a list actually but then I guess Nikon might get away with it..it's one reason I did not buy into Nikon despite liking the system overall.

Based on other Sony products I bought, I'd say it is a religion with Sony. It is extremely difficult to buy a full featured Sony product from brick and mortar retail. Even when I am willing to buy the top of the line item (available in the store), they have added some features I want and removed others that I wanted. Occasionally, I have found a truly fully featured Sony product on line, but it almost seems that they want you to buy 2 of each type of product. One to do "abc" and the other to do "abd". If you find one that does "c and d", it would usually be missing a or b.

One example was a 300 disk CD changer. The instruction manual (which covered all of the variations of that line) explained how a certain model could be connected to multiple audio and computer systems and store both audio CDs and data CDs and which could be controlled by the Sony remote or the computer. I was never able to find one either in store or on line (today I think that is different since there are some that hold at least CDs and DVDs.)

At one time you knew that if you wanted to do everything that a brand could do, just spend the money and get the best. With Sony, and I expect other brands, you have to be much more careful and buy based only on the specs for the actual model you plan to buy.

tom

[bfitzgerald]

Tom you are probably right and you'd have better idea on Sony products in various markets than I would. You have to ask yourself is it deliberate or simply overlooking some areas by mistake. IMO it's deliberate with a twist of Toru's well known "Sony simple" which could explain the menus getting simplified too. (It might work for Nikon as they have big brand pull for DSLR's (despite the crippling lower end) not sure it's as successful for Alpha products)

Problem is if you don't subscribe to that thinking you've nothing on offer A mount wise that will appeal. Folks might laugh at me with a budget Pentax..the funny thing is I can do stuff on that even FF users cannot! (too many to list here) With extensive customisation you feel like a product can fit your needs better and you're not stuck with some "suits" idea of what you should have. The menus are not hard to navigate or mind boggling because you rarely go in there to change things once you have it set up.

Even DPR called the A550's menus "comically brief" I don't mind a bit of simple but you have to cover most of the core stuff.

[Dusty]

snip...
Problem is if you don't subscribe to that thinking you've nothing on offer A mount wise that will appeal. Folks might laugh at me with a budget Pentax..the funny thing is I can do stuff on that even FF users cannot! (too many to list here) With extensive customisation you feel like a product can fit your needs better and you're not stuck with some "suits" idea of what you should have. The menus are not hard to navigate or mind boggling because you rarely go in there to change things once you have it set up.

Even DPR called the A550's menus "comically brief" I don't mind a bit of simple but you have to cover most of the core stuff.

Sony, are you listening? Again I'll repeat myself - put in a dual track menu system, standard (simplified) and advanced, and let the uses choose which ones they want! Why should I be forced to have a dumbed down system to make it simple for the simpletons?

Krumanacher's Camera Shop had up a cartoon that read - "You can't make things foolproof because fools are so damned ingenious!" PLEASE, SONY, let the advanced user be able to customize his settings.

Dusty

[alphaomega]

Barry Fitzgerald wrote

The A700 is a pointless purchase not because it's not a good camera, but it's probably the last of it's type.

A remarkable argument. It is either a good camera or not. It's a good camera. I have bought two and my son is using my old one and bringing back 10,000 images per trip. I am wondering why the shutter is still functioning perfectly. With Adobe 2010 rendering in ACR6 and LR3 it is even better than ever.

The only viable option was the A580 but the price was a bit high and it's still got some annoying quirks. As for reviewers I like them to take the gloves off now and then..if they don't that's their own choice. I think the A55 got an easy ride on most reviews.

Let me suggest that "the A55 got an easy ride" was because BF disagrees with the conclusions. DPReview were not renowned for being pro Sony.

Now if Sony actually bothered to make a real A700 successor with a real OVF then that might be a reason to stick around. SLT won't do here I'm afraid.

I will bet my "bottom dollar" that if Sony came out with just such a camera BF would claim that it was too expensive for what it was.
No chance for Sony here. So Barry should cut his losses and sell all his Minolta/Sony gear. The proceeds could then be invested in new Pentax lenses. Pentax may see that there is a market for disaffected Minolta users who will not buy into Sony's new products. That may keep Pentax floating along at 5% or less of the market. Please note that I will not buy SLT either but have A580 - fine camera and NEX-5 two lens kit making its way to Scotland in the slow lane.

[bfitzgerald]

You should know me well enough by now. There is no remarkable argument the A700 is discontinued and is over 3 years old and IMO I would not pay the asking price s/h for one I'd rather have a warranty with a camera. As it is I've no problem buying s/h film bodies but I'm much less keen on digital ones.

Most agree Sony should have updated it a year or so ago but they did not do that. I never look at the price as first release as a product gets older it's price falls in some cases quite a lot. I could have got a K-7 had enough cash at the time but I decided I wanted the better low light sensor.

I also doubt Pentax are looking to dominate the market but they're doing fairly well in the last year or so a good turn around for them. Sony could have 80% of the market if they make products that I don't find appealing that's of no interest to me at all. Whatever happens down the road I'm sticking with a traditional photographic company they understand the needs of photographers much better than one that does not have a history in this segment. I'm keeping my stuff as I use it for film too..that's my choice and a perfectly reasonable one. It's got a lot less to do with keeping options open for any future Sony product. It would be extremely unlikely they will meet my needs on that. They don't really "get it" and that's been clear over the last few years.

[gio67]

BF you must be a very unhappy man,never content,I don't normally post on the threads but I do view them a lot and every comment you make seems to be negative,I honestly think you are on the wrong website as everybody else seems to have a positive outlook and make the best of what they have, however i find your pessimistic outlook depressing and you really need to lighten up,
every silver lining has a cloud

[bfitzgerald]

I'm simply expressing my opinion which you are free to disagree with. It's not negative it's to me the state of affairs with only one specific company. I'm sure if we all said nothing about MLU then it would have got added to the A560/580

Don't ask don't get don't complain don't get. Seems to work!

[Argonaut]

BF said, "The A700 is a pointless purchase not because it's not a good camera ..." Whether you're a cynic or a Pollyanna is not the question. A statement like this is so foolish it diminishes the rest of your comment(s) - particularly when you've been called on it and made no response. Perhaps you should add 72 close-ups of cats and night-time football instead.

[bfitzgerald]

It's far from foolish to me. Why continue to buy into a system that is clearly not heading in a direction I like? That would be foolish.

I'd rather not have to buy new lenses and flashes but the choice was made and it's done now. And I can exceed the A700's low light performance with a camera costing far less than the A700 did. If Sony had comparable models to the range Pentax offer I'd be delighted to stick with A mount, they don't (and nowhere near it IMO) so that's that old bean! If you had a K-5, K-r and K-x on A mount right now I'd guarantee most users would be absolutely chuffed to bits much more interesting than chasing SLT dreams.