A700 replacement 2011 25MP...

[bfitzgerald]

Ah but Canon don't put the on/off around the shutter button (either on the main mode dial or erm as the 7d is cough on the left hand side) So no matter what you do it will never meet the desires of Canon and Nikon users at the same time.

BTW the first model to feature this was the A230 (which was released before the A550) so it was obviously a concious choice from Sony to do this. But unlike Nikon and Pentax who have a reasonably refined and moulded on/off switch..the one from Sony looks like it was just shoved on there! (I believe DK said something along the lines of a cheap cybershot part)

I can't say I'm particularly bothered where it is so long as it's not in a stupid location. But it does show that Sony possibly feels the need to tinker when many would say they do with areas that are not very important overall. It would have been nice to tinker with a full time ISO display or bodies that have a dedicated button for WB than to change such a pointless area as the on/off switch location.

[tom power 53]

Greg said: If I had to choose between a camera with a 3" screen with the on off switch being around the shutter button and a camera with a 2.7" screen with the on off switch being the left thumb type, I know which camera I would choose. I think Sony just fell into line with Nikon and Canon more than anything so any potential Nikon or Canon users would not have any difficulty in use or reason to complain.


Kind of flabbergasting that you would prefer a smaller screen because you like the on/off button placement better in the old place. Not sure how to even respond to that. Quite curious but does kind of reinforce the notion that often even improvements are met with resistance just because they are different.

Just out of curiosity how much bigger would the LCD need to be to overcome the resistance to moving the on/off button? Maybe 3.5 inches?

To further emphasize this human behaviour I will add that when I first sold my A100 and got my A700 I really did not like the "feel" of the camera at all. About a month later I took a shot with my old A100 for the person I sold it to and could only think - wow - this camera is weird feeling. What did I ever like so much about it.

[tom power 53]

Ah but Canon don't put the on/off around the shutter button (either on the main mode dial or erm as the 7d is cough on the left hand side) So no matter what you do it will never meet the desires of Canon and Nikon users at the same time.

BTW the first model to feature this was the A230 (which was released before the A550) so it was obviously a concious choice from Sony to do this. But unlike Nikon and Pentax who have a reasonably refined and moulded on/off switch..the one from Sony looks like it was just shoved on there! (I believe DK said something along the lines of a cheap cybershot part)

I can't say I'm particularly bothered where it is so long as it's not in a stupid location. But it does show that Sony possibly feels the need to tinker when many would say they do with areas that are not very important overall. It would have been nice to tinker with a full time ISO display or bodies that have a dedicated button for WB than to change such a pointless area as the on/off switch location.

You know Barry I still don't see the big deal here but maybe it was a savings in money and warranty down the road along with manufacturtering simplification to be able to combine both those switches into one area? Hard to say what Sony's reason was but there must have been a reason (maybe not a good one though) but surely some reason.

I do agree with your constant attention to the lack of ISO in the viewfinder - though not necessarily the need for a dedicated button for it. I myself seldom change ISO on the fly so doing it while the camera is at my eye is no big deal on a 5 series or less camera. On a 7/8/9 series I agree with your point - that is a different animal and deserves more control.

[Greg Beetham]

(I had to dash off to a Christening) Yes both the 7D and 60D have the on/off switch on the left now, it's still not the same as being on the back face, it's up on top and a bit more inaccessible I think, but definitely an improvement over having it around the shutter button where one has to distinguish it from the front wheel dial and shutter button for not only turning it on, but operating either control, and turning it off.
I don't have any of the later Sony models myself mainly because of my self imposed Sony embargo, and even if I didn't have that I would not buy any Sony model that didn't have AEL spot toggle, (and one wonders how well the flash now works with the AEL button, Sony may have done something to that as well for all I know, it's an unknown to me at this point...still).
Yes it's a mystery allright why it's so difficult to put the ISO value in the viewfinder when lots of other stuff is in there, some of which I think are less important than the ISO value. I mean do we really need two anti shake warnings and readouts? the hand one and the little scale also?
And I really think it's time that WB got some attention, instead of gps', movies and 15 frames a second, what about a WB that analyzes the lighting conditions better in [Auto], more like a colour meter built in, now that would be a real advance.
Greg

[Greg Beetham]

Why would my resistance need to be overcome? what's wrong with a 2.7" screen? the bigger the screen and the more dots it has the faster it uses up the battery, I can zoom in on my 2.5" screen to see if the focus was ok on the last shot so that's basically all I really need. Some people turn the rear screen off to save on battery power, so what's the point of moving the on/off switch to some klutzy location around the shutter button so you can have a 3" screen and then leave it turned off anyway to save power?
Greg

[bakubo]

If I had to choose between a camera with a 3" screen with the on off switch being around the shutter button and a camera with a 2.7" screen with the on off switch being the left thumb type, I know which camera I would choose. I think Sony just fell into line with Nikon and Canon more than anything so any potential Nikon or Canon users would not have any difficulty in use or reason to complain.

With the Canon 60D you don't have to make that tough choice. It has a 3" LCD tilt/swivel (and it is a full 3:2 aspect ratio so you use the full space when displaying photos) and it has an on/off switch under the left knob operated with your thumb. Works great and the switch doesn't take any real estate from the back.

[Greg Beetham]

Yes the 60D is a good camera, but still no AS built in where all your lenses get stabilized, stabilized if the camera 'recognizes' the lens that is, that's the only drawback in owning a Canon or Nikon camera I think, funny thing is, Nikon have the vibrating sensor for cleaning purposes so how far away from converting that into in body stabilization is that?
Greg

[alphaomega]

Yes the 60D is a good camera, but still no AS built in where all your lenses get stabilized, stabilized if the camera 'recognizes' the lens that is, that's the only drawback in owning a Canon or Nikon camera I think, funny thing is, Nikon have the vibrating sensor for cleaning purposes so how far away from converting that into in body stabilization is that?Greg

Greg, conversely one might argue that Sony are as "blinkered" the other way round. If it is true that in lens stabilization is better for longer lenses v. SSS then logically Sony should install in lens stabilization in lenses such as 70-400 and the new 500mm tele. They won't do that although they would also benefit NEX owners wanting to put one of these "long toms" on a NEX with adapter. I am kind of disappointed that Tamron are bringing our their new 70-300 and 18-270 lenses W/O stabilization in Sony A mount versions. I am sure it is because Sony are going to use the designs for Sony versions and don't want lens stabilization. Bad decision with the popularity of NEX and the possibility of a higher specification version. I fancied the 18-270 for both my DSLRs and NEX-5 and in lens stabilization would be "just the job".

[Greg Beetham]

Yes the NEX misses out all round with stabilization...so far at least, unless Sony decide to start with in lens stabilization in the e-mount, I think they do in some of the p&s models so why not for the e-mount? probably because the only serious teles that are available are in a-mount at a guess, otherwise Sony would have to build ILS tele lenses in e-mount from the ground up themselves, and does Sony see the mount as a sporting event-wildlife mount? maybe not. The lenses would have to have swivelling mounting brackets for the tripod as you could not mount even a medium tele on a tripod using the camera mounting. And then there is the question of how many NEX owners would actually lash out with the hard earned for a very expensive e-mount apochromat tele with ILS? Maybe as time goes on and the assessment of usage and owner desires progress there might be something special in the e-mount, who knows.
Greg

[alphaomega]

unless Sony decide to start with in lens stabilization in the e-mount,

Greg, as a matter of fact the 16mm pancake is not stabilized, but both the 18-55 and 18-200 E-mounts released so far has stabilization built in controlled from the NEX body. I would expect Sony to continue with stabilization in all new E-mount lenses, at least the ones reaching beyond wide angle only. There is supposed to be a 55-200mm coming this year. I would expect that to be stabilized as well. Not sure about primes such as a rumoured 30mm.

[alphaomega]

BTW the first model to feature this was the A230 (which was released before the A550) so it was obviously a concious choice from Sony to do this. But unlike Nikon and Pentax who have a reasonably refined and moulded on/off switch..the one from Sony looks like it was just shoved on there! (I believe DK said something along the lines of a cheap cybershot part)

Not sure if Barry is right here. As I recall the A230 was smaller than the A200 and, therefore might have had to have a re-location of the on/off switch out of necessity. One can argue if the right location was chosen.
A200 dimensions 131 x 98.5 x 71 mm (5.2 x 3.7 x 2.8 in)
A230 dimensions 128 x 97 x 67.5 mm (W/H/D, excluding protrusions)
So we are seing a reduction in width and height probably enough to require a relocation of the on/off switch. Certainly looking at the A230 rear view there is not enough space for the on/off as on A200. As I said earlier the new switch was used on the R1 - hardlly a "cheap cybershot". I paid over £500.00.
One can argue that the A230 was wrongly designed and should not have been smaller than the A200, but not that the on/off switch should be in an unsuitable location.

[Greg Beetham]

Ah so the two NEX zooms do have ILS then, that's something I'd forgotten even if I did know at some point, I wonder what's taking so long for the 18-200 to make an appearance?
I'll try and take more notice of things NEX in the future...
Greg

[tom power 53]

Why would my resistance need to be overcome? what's wrong with a 2.7" screen? the bigger the screen and the more dots it has the faster it uses up the battery, I can zoom in on my 2.5" screen to see if the focus was ok on the last shot so that's basically all I really need. Some people turn the rear screen off to save on battery power, so what's the point of moving the on/off switch to some klutzy location around the shutter button so you can have a 3" screen and then leave it turned off anyway to save power?
Greg

You know Greg I can see you don't care about a larger screen but nearly every other person that owns a camera would like to have a 3" LCD versus a 2.7". Every single high end camera (and nearly every low end one also) made over the last 10 years inexorably keeps getting bigger and bigger LCD screens. Not every single time a new variation comes out but higher res and bigger sizes are the direction. Now at some point this will stop but my guess is this will be at about 3.5"s not 2.7"s as the bodies will overall be getting smaller not bigger IMO and real estate will run out soon.

As far as battery power most folks have no problem carrying an extra battery around too have the bigger brighter screen option. Very few people overall go out and take 500 images in a day and those that do can see in the camera when the battery is getting weak and just change it. Sure their are exceptions to this but camera companies are geared for producing what most people want not what a few people want.

I follow your arguments about the ISO and AEL spot toggle etc. but the on/off button placement really makes me chuckle. I mean the cameras have improved so much and the prices have stayed so low and the location of the button is so insignificant. This is an important issue for some? I just don't get it.

Any way I will stop harassing you about this as it makes no sense really for me to care - just shows how ridiculus I am. At first I was just discussing it with you now I am obsessing and I need to get off my computer and go skiing instead.

[bfitzgerald]

Actually it was not really about the on/off button location..the consequences of that meant that they moved the front control dial to the front of the grip personally I really liked it's position placed in front of the shutter button. Canon traditionally place it behind the shutter release.

When you move something it has an effect on other button placements and locations. This isn't a Sony specific thing I remember trying a D80 quite some time ago and thinking it's ergonomics were not really that great esp with WB and ISO buttons on the left hand bank near the LCD. Even thought I'm using a brand that has an on/off around the shutter I still prefer it the way Minolta had it and Sony until they changed it. Though I will say one point at least Pentax did put the single control dial models the dial on the "back" of the body it's a better position IMO than at the front of the grip. Obviously this doesn't apply to models that have 2 dials.

[twm47099]

Yes it's a mystery allright why it's so difficult to put the ISO value in the viewfinder when lots of other stuff is in there, some of which I think are less important than the ISO value. I mean do we really need two anti shake warnings and readouts? the hand one and the little scale also?

I first came across the 'shaky hand' icon when I bought a used 700si. Making it worse was that the damn thing blinked just to make sure you couldn't ignore it. I was surprised by it because neither my XTsi (505si super) or 7 had such a ridiculous thing. (OK not ridiculous for an entry level camera.)

So I was really surprised when KM brought it back on the 7D, but at least it doesn't blink. And to make room for that important icon they shortened the metering index to +/-2 instead of the +/-3 that they had on the film 7. To make matters worse, the shaky hand doesn't even take AS into effect. And of course Sony continued it not only on the A700 but even on the A850/900 (just to make sure the user doesn't forget). At least the A850/900 VFs show +/-3ev on the scale. On my 7D and A700, I can count the number of times the shutter speed is high enough that the hand disappears.

Oh yeah, let's hope Sony keeps the scene modes on the 7 series mode dial. They are so much more useful than having the memories selectable on the dial. :^)

tom