New DSLR with Exmor R CMOS sensor

Specifically for the discussion of the A-mount DSLR range
Forum rules
No more than three images or three external links allowed in any post or reply. Please trim quotations and do not include images in quotes unless essential.
agorabasta
Viceroy
Posts: 1198
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:41 pm

Re: New DSLR with Exmor R CMOS sensor

Unread post by agorabasta »

David Kilpatrick wrote:Modern low-pass filters do not simply blur (if that was required, it could more easily be done by a focus offset linked to focal length and aperture data). They are based on thin layer coating diffraction, and produce an exact blur pattern from incoming rays which is tuned to the standard de-Bayer convolution of the sensor.
.................................................
To get even close, the movement of the sensor would need to be a circular one, or covering a specific circle with deceleration to the edges and a complex pattern of diametric movements.

David
Surely, the circular movement is the most logical and energy-efficient way to do it. The total energy of such motion is about 0.005J; assuming friction losses about 1% (actual value is much lower) we arrive at power drain of about 1.5W during exposure - that's nothing.

I have a very strong doubt that diffraction LPF is not affecting the local contrast, as in case of diffraction you get whether some kind of periodic pattern or a sharp peak with a faint but very wide halo (or a combination of both).
That's why I believe that controlled sensor movement is a much better thing than an LPF.

(BTW, defocusing blurring wouldn't work ever, as some other parts of image could fall in focus...)
agorabasta
Viceroy
Posts: 1198
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:41 pm

Re: New DSLR with Exmor R CMOS sensor

Unread post by agorabasta »

dkloi wrote: You're forgetting the second (primary) layer which also has to be taken into account when doing interpolation/reconstruction of the final image. There's nothing magical about CA. If it's there at the image plane, it'll be treated exactly like any part of the image. I'm not really following you when you say "blurred by CA".

Cheers,
Daniel.
In your case the luma is a sum of cyan+yellow+red+blue. The spatial info in both cyan and yellow is created by a pair of colours deviating due to CA. Hence your luma inevitably is blurred.
Then you sure can apply correction to your chroma channels, but it ain't gonna make your pic any sharper since luma is blurred anyway.
David Kilpatrick
Site Admin
Posts: 5985
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 1:14 pm
Location: Kelso, Scotland
Contact:

Re: New DSLR with Exmor R CMOS sensor

Unread post by David Kilpatrick »

kingfisher wrote:hello everyone

i can tell you that both camera`s , the A500 and the A550 have CMOS EXMOR R

iàm sure

greetings
gustav

So we have 16.x megapixel (based on your earlier information) APS-C, one with live view and video, one without, using a new sensor?

Daniel (dkloi) is usually able to find new Sony sensors or sensor patents, and has not reported anything like this yet.

David
David Kilpatrick
Site Admin
Posts: 5985
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 1:14 pm
Location: Kelso, Scotland
Contact:

Re: New DSLR with Exmor R CMOS sensor

Unread post by David Kilpatrick »

agorabasta wrote: (BTW, defocusing blurring wouldn't work ever, as some other parts of image could fall in focus...)
Of course. Not everything is a flat target. Wouldn't work at all!

David
User avatar
Dusty
Emperor of a Minor Galaxy
Posts: 2215
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:04 pm
Location: Ironton, Missouri, USA

Re: New DSLR with Exmor R CMOS sensor

Unread post by Dusty »

David Kilpatrick wrote: So we have 16.x megapixel (based on your earlier information) APS-C, one with live view and video, one without, using a new sensor?

David
'Twould be sweet! We can only hope! Should they get the frame rates and high ISO performance up as well, we may even get "the excommunicated one" stop whining!

Dusty
dkloi
Initiate
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:23 am
Location: Glasgow
Contact:

Re: New DSLR with Exmor R CMOS sensor

Unread post by dkloi »

agorabasta wrote:
dkloi wrote: You're forgetting the second (primary) layer which also has to be taken into account when doing interpolation/reconstruction of the final image. There's nothing magical about CA. If it's there at the image plane, it'll be treated exactly like any part of the image. I'm not really following you when you say "blurred by CA".

Cheers,
Daniel.
In your case the luma is a sum of cyan+yellow+red+blue. The spatial info in both cyan and yellow is created by a pair of colours deviating due to CA. Hence your luma inevitably is blurred.
Then you sure can apply correction to your chroma channels, but it ain't gonna make your pic any sharper since luma is blurred anyway.
Again, you're forgetting the second layer of Red and Blue and how demosaicing works. E.g. A cyan pixel in the first layer is paired with a red pixel directly underneath, a yellow with a blue. In most, if not all, all demosaicing algorithms, luminance information at a particular pixel in the final image is actually determined by a region of source pixels in the RAW image, this region will have many samples of Cyan, Yellow, Red and Blue, and the final pixel value depends on a weighted sum of these (depending on the location of the source data with respect to the output pixel). Hence spatial information in the colour channel can be reconstructed (up to a spatial frequency cut-off intermediate to that of conventional Bayer and Foveon).

One way to look at it is to decompose the reconstruction into luminance, and red and blue channels (from which the green channel naturally can be derived).

Luminance comes just by adding the values of the pixels above each other.

The crudest but simplest to understand Red and Blue reconstruction comes by interpolating the red and blue sub-lattices respectively.

In a Bayer RGB sensor, you can do the same thing, but this time reconstruct the Red Green and Blue channels by doing interpolation of the red, green and blue sub-lattices independently.

Since in the two-layer approach, the red and blue sub-lattices are twice as dense as those of the RGB Bayer, this reconstruction is more accurate. Needless to say, the green and luminance channels of the two-layer approach are also reconstructed more accurately.

There are more advanced reconstruction algorithms which use correlations between channels in real world imagery to enhance certain pictorially important information (like edges) but in the whole, the greater amount of spatio-chromo samples in the two layer approach will lead to better results than the conventional RGB Bayer.

The best way to see this is to code up a demosaicing algorithm for both RGB Bayer and a two-layer approach, but it'll have to wait till I have a spare day.

Cheers,
Daniel.
Minolta AF 9000, Dynax 7, KM 7D, Sony A700, A580, A77, NEX-7
http://www.dkloi.co.uk
http://www.360cities.net/profile/daniel-oi
dkloi
Initiate
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:23 am
Location: Glasgow
Contact:

Re: New DSLR with Exmor R CMOS sensor

Unread post by dkloi »

David Kilpatrick wrote:
agorabasta wrote: (BTW, defocusing blurring wouldn't work ever, as some other parts of image could fall in focus...)
Of course. Not everything is a flat target. Wouldn't work at all!

David
We may get to the stage that the pixel density is high enough so that its Nyquist cut-off is higher than the lenses you can put in front of it. The AA filter is just there to make sure that spatial frequencies higher than Nyquist don't fold back down into the reconstruction band. If those spatial frequencies aren't there, no need for AA filters :-).

One may ask why bother with oversampling the spatial signal? For signals of finite extent, oversampling may provide some benefit, especially when looking at transients (edges). There may be noise reduction techniques which would reject frequencies in the signals above the known (possible) spatial frequency band of the original signal.

Cheers,
Daniel.
Minolta AF 9000, Dynax 7, KM 7D, Sony A700, A580, A77, NEX-7
http://www.dkloi.co.uk
http://www.360cities.net/profile/daniel-oi
alphaomega
Viceroy
Posts: 1196
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:20 pm

Re: New DSLR with Exmor R CMOS sensor

Unread post by alphaomega »

David Kilpatrick replied to kingfisher:
kingfisher wrote:
hello everyone

i can tell you that both camera`s , the A500 and the A550 have CMOS EXMOR R

iàm sure

greetings
gustav



So we have 16.x megapixel (based on your earlier information) APS-C, one with live view and video, one without, using a new sensor?

Daniel (dkloi) is usually able to find new Sony sensors or sensor patents, and has not reported anything like this yet.

David
Don't forget agorabasta's prior contribution above quoting the letter from Kelly Finlay of Sony
Hi Steve

Thanks for your email about Sony’s Twilight Football competition.

Unfortunately this was an error in the copy, there will not be Exmor R Alpha models at the event. There will, however, be Exmor models such as the A900.

Don’t hesitate to let me know if you need anything further.

Kind regards,
Kelly

Kelly Finlay
Public Relations Manager
Sony Australia
Lacking the commercialisation of an APS-C size Exmor R and the Sony denial from Kelly Finlay I would say that we can forget about Exmor R in A500/550 models to be released shortly. David also pointed out that the benefit of "backlit" sensors in APS-C size and above are at best marginal, So I really think the matter is closed and I can buy a new A700 without losing sleep.
agorabasta
Viceroy
Posts: 1198
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:41 pm

Re: New DSLR with Exmor R CMOS sensor

Unread post by agorabasta »

dkloi wrote: Again, you're forgetting the second layer of Red and Blue and how demosaicing works. E.g. A cyan pixel in the first layer is paired with a red pixel directly underneath, a yellow with a blue.
I'm not forgetting nothing, and Ignorance is not my second name :lol:

If two spatially divergent signals are read-out as one value, you have no chance to split them back. You may, though, create some illusion of sharpness intro'ing tons of noise.

Reconstructing luma per single pair as cyan+red and then for the other shifted lattice doing it as yellow+blue does not work since there would be just a sole WB point where they may coincide - and that's at best! So in your case you'd have to reconstruct the luma off those two lattices as they do for the two greens in Bayer.

So you really need to comprehend that the pure red/blue in your case are used primarily for the Cr/Cb chroma; their contribution to the luma is next to negligible, as cyan+yellow (i.e. 2G+B+R) are much brighter and closely resemble the luma sensitivity of human vision, so there's simply no slot for your red/blue to stuff in :twisted: .
User avatar
Greg Beetham
Tower of Babel
Posts: 6118
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 3:25 pm
Location: Townsville, Qld. Australia
Contact:

Re: New DSLR with Exmor R CMOS sensor

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

I'm sort of wondering, what happens to the photons that glance off the side of sensels in the upper layer without registering any value.
Greg
dkloi
Initiate
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:23 am
Location: Glasgow
Contact:

Re: New DSLR with Exmor R CMOS sensor

Unread post by dkloi »

agorabasta wrote: If two spatially divergent signals are read-out as one value, you have no chance to split them back. You may, though, create some illusion of sharpness intro'ing tons of noise.
I'm not following you here. Can you explain which spatially divergent signals, why are they read out as one value, what do you mean by "splitting them back".
agorabasta wrote: Reconstructing luma per single pair as cyan+red and then for the other shifted lattice doing it as yellow+blue does not work since there would be just a sole WB point where they may coincide - and that's at best! So in your case you'd have to reconstruct the luma off those two lattices as they do for the two greens in Bayer.
I'm beginning to understand why you're disagreeing with me :-). You think I mean Cyan and Yellow when I actually mean B+G and R+G, sorry for the sloppiness in terminology. Ultimately I want to reconstruct absolute values for each of the red, green and blue spectral bands. All that white balance/colourspace stuff can happen after. I didn't actually want to derive L directly, when I said luminance, I meant R+G+B (not L=0.2126R + 0.7152G + 0.0722B), perhaps I should have said "total photometric power in the 400nm to 700nm spectral range" :-).
agorabasta wrote: So you really need to comprehend that the pure red/blue in your case are used primarily for the Cr/Cb chroma; their contribution to the luma is next to negligible, as cyan+yellow (i.e. 2G+B+R) are much brighter and closely resemble the luma sensitivity of human vision, so there's simply no slot for your red/blue to stuff in :twisted: .
Since I'm working in absolute RGB space (not HSL or LAB) then my reconstruction works fine. I can reconstruct the absolute red, green and blue channels, from there do whatever colourspace transformations I want. The physical signal (photometric power in the relevant spectral bands) is what I care about :-). Once the raw signal has been reconstructed, all the psycho-visual stuff (colourspaces, white balancing) can be derived from that signal. But intrinsically, the signal reconstruction of the two layer sensor will be better than RGB Bayer.

Cheers,
Daniel.
Minolta AF 9000, Dynax 7, KM 7D, Sony A700, A580, A77, NEX-7
http://www.dkloi.co.uk
http://www.360cities.net/profile/daniel-oi
dkloi
Initiate
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:23 am
Location: Glasgow
Contact:

Re: New DSLR with Exmor R CMOS sensor

Unread post by dkloi »

Greg Beetham wrote:I'm sort of wondering, what happens to the photons that glance off the side of sensels in the upper layer without registering any value.
Greg
To reduce reflection off the top of the sensor, you can apply AR coatings.

For photons entering one pixel but eventually registering in another, It'd contribute to pixel cross talk. Hopefully, by suitable design of your sensor (lateral light shields, low aspect ratio photodiodes, etc), you can reduce this to an acceptable level. If you can characterise it, then you can try to deconvolute the signal to compensate for its effect, subject to signal to noise considerations. Pixel cross talk is something all sensors have to take care of to some degree.

Cheers,
Daniel.
Minolta AF 9000, Dynax 7, KM 7D, Sony A700, A580, A77, NEX-7
http://www.dkloi.co.uk
http://www.360cities.net/profile/daniel-oi
User avatar
Greg Beetham
Tower of Babel
Posts: 6118
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 3:25 pm
Location: Townsville, Qld. Australia
Contact:

Re: New DSLR with Exmor R CMOS sensor

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

dkloi wrote:
To reduce reflection off the top of the sensor, you can apply AR coatings.

For photons entering one pixel but eventually registering in another, It'd contribute to pixel cross talk. Hopefully, by suitable design of your sensor (lateral light shields, low aspect ratio photodiodes, etc), you can reduce this to an acceptable level. If you can characterise it, then you can try to deconvolute the signal to compensate for its effect, subject to signal to noise considerations. Pixel cross talk is something all sensors have to take care of to some degree.

Cheers,
Daniel.
Okey doke, I know photons can do all sorts of weird stuff...duality and all that. It crossed my mind that with a receptive layer below the first, the second layer might get a cascade of rejects from the first, with modified properties....although I've read somewhere that a Photon can pass through glass ok, just loosing some velocity in the process and an adjusted wavelength but doesn't loose it's frequency...amazing little beastie. :)
Greg
dkloi
Initiate
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:23 am
Location: Glasgow
Contact:

Re: New DSLR with Exmor R CMOS sensor

Unread post by dkloi »

Greg Beetham wrote:
Okey doke, I know photons can do all sorts of weird stuff...duality and all that. It crossed my mind that with a receptive layer below the first, the second layer might get a cascade of rejects from the first, with modified properties....although I've read somewhere that a Photon can pass through glass ok, just loosing some velocity in the process and an adjusted wavelength but doesn't loose it's frequency...amazing little beastie. :)
Greg
Don't get me started :-) (I deal with this sort of stuff for a living)

A well respected quantum physicist (Lamb, of the Lamb Shift) wanted the term "photon" banned as careless use led to all sorts of misconceptions (e.g. photon momentum in a dielectric, the size of a photon, superluminal tunneling). I'd be inclined to agree with him. It's slightly more accurate to say, "quantised excitation of the electromagnetic field", but that is a bit unwieldy :-).

AFAIK Silicon isn't a very non-linear optical material, you'd have to go to really high power density (high power laser pulses confined in tiny mode volumes of waveguides perhaps) before you get significant three or four wave mixing. Even then, the interaction distances are measured in mm or cm, not microns. I wish we could get significant non-linear interactions in microns as we'd be able to build optical quantum computers much more easily :-).

Light changes its velocity as it passes through different materials (refraction) and it's why your lenses work. It can be understood by solving Maxwell's equations for electromagnetism in a dielectric, no need to invoke quantum mechanics :-). Sound behaves the same way, it's velocity depends in the ratio of the stiffness and density of the medium it travels through (in a solid) or the average speed of the particles in a gas (that's why the speed of sound in air changes with temperature, not because of pressure). You can make sound lenses just like light lenses, using regions which have different sound velocities. A round helium balloon would act as a concave lens (think about it).

Here endeth your physics lesson for the day. Amen.

Cheers,
Daniel.
Minolta AF 9000, Dynax 7, KM 7D, Sony A700, A580, A77, NEX-7
http://www.dkloi.co.uk
http://www.360cities.net/profile/daniel-oi
User avatar
Greg Beetham
Tower of Babel
Posts: 6118
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 3:25 pm
Location: Townsville, Qld. Australia
Contact:

Re: New DSLR with Exmor R CMOS sensor

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

Ha ha, the sound baloon lens might have a few problems in a vacuum... :lol:
Greg
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests