PMA round up

[Dr. Harout]

I think we should have a thread concerning those mock ups at PMA. I know there were lots of debates specially on Dyxum, nevertheless we could find some answers too. David's article got real attention (It's a great article, I would say) and I'm sure there were lots of hits on Photoclubalpha.com lately.

First, we may summarize some disappointments regarding the DSLRs:
1- Absence of WB button
2- Same for ISO
3- Nikon/Pentax type of on-off switch
4- Change in button places (could we say: change in Sony style?)
5- Top LCD
6- Slightly Canon look
7- No info/details given by Sony

Second, some relief:
1- that Sony is showing "something"
2- partly keeping promises

What if the mock up was not the successor of A700? Rather an A6xx model to make a diversion and suddenly the real successor hits the market (just an assumption )

Usually I don't get into rumors, but this time I'm in it just for fun
BTW, Gustav (probably David too) knows a lot but is keeping silence. How about "attacking" them

[Javelin]

WB button. Well I’d prefer if it stayed. But not a deal killer. It just makes the camera a point less attractive next to one with a full compliment of buttons. I think I would trade this and the ISO button for something else that I could use between frames while I was shooting though.

ISO button. See above

Change in button positions: Seems like the really important stuff is where it should be

Top LCD. Haven’t had one before but again I think I would rather see the real estate it used put to better use.

Canon look: Don’t buy that. They sloped one of the sides a little more is all. There still ugly ole Minolta.

Info from Sony: They don’t owe use any no mater how much we wish they would bring us in from the cold.

It’ good that Sony showed something. I don’t think they did themselves any favors in this regard.

I don’t think Sony ever made any promises.

[grubster]

I think we should just wait until the actual specs are published and the actual camera bodies are shown.

It's pretty obvious that the back of the camera has yet to finalized. People are listing missing buttons from a camera body that has not even been released. The absence of port flaps and card door also suggest that the body mock up is incomplete.

[bfitzgerald]

I read DK's article. Yup mag alloy body, that's for sure..and it was obvious too (well it looks like it anyway)
As for MLU, well frankly are we celebrating the fact it probably has MLU? Honestly, I'd be pretty shocked if it didn't! If this is what A mount users are reduced to, that's kinda scary

We simply don't know how close this is to the final product.

With regards buttons and controls etc. Any camera in this class that does not rapid and direct access to ISO and WB, is asking for a hiding straight away. So I'd have to bet that this will get added later, it would be too insane not to.
Top LCD, again I'm 50/50 on that, I get by fine without one..don't really care, but I'm puzzled as to why Sony are so devoid of ideas, they seem to have created a camera blender job for this one, part Canon, part other makers merged together and frankly I don't care much for the look or at the moment the layout/handling.

With each bit of news that comes on Alpha models, I find Sony's direction less interesting, they change designs every model, they seem unsure about where they are heading, unwilling to address issues via firmware, and clearly attempting to class everyone who buys up to mid level, as a p&s user, leaving enthusiasts out in the cold. I know I've been critical of Sony, just it seems the horse is half dead..and I ask myself do I want to stick around to see it fall over completely. I'm afraid many folks I am in contact with, A mount users feel the same or a similar way. They're just not listening to users, and I very much doubt they ever will.
For folks who want a taste of Minolta, Sony is as far removed as you can get, and gets further away from that each model release. I think Pentax has an awful lot more appeal for Minolta users..and I never thought I would say that a few years ago. Apologies for wandering off..but it's just how I feel, Sony don't interest me at all any more.

[Dr. Harout]

Barry, just suppose that the mock up is not THE successor (BTW, I just read on Dyxum that someone else had that question/dilemma too). What if the successor is really what you would expect from a camera...
I too am 50/50 for the top plate, as for the button placements I might get used to that.

[bfitzgerald]

I think the problem is as you have said..
We know next to nothing! I find it hard to imagine that this mock up is not going to be fairly close to a production model, in overall design. Else why release the mock up photos?
With Sony you never really know what is going to happen, the past has taught us that, but their previous mock up's have been close to final products.

I've got this horrible feeling that the Sony trend of late, simplification of controls..will even impact on this new A7xx model. I expect that A700 users won't be terribly satisfied with what will be on offer, either in design, or indeed overall. I'm not rubbishing it now, but there is a complete lack of direction and consistency with Sony..all they had to do was tweak an A700.

I would add, I could ebay an A700 right now..and probably would love it, but I'm living in the past, as I am with the Km5d, and even A200. If future products don't appeal, it's really a dead end for myself. I honestly have a heavy heart here, ok it's only a camera, and lenses..who cares? I saw such massive potential with Sony, combine the ideas of Minolta, with a big budget..we should be getting amazed and blown away, instead we sit here debating if we will be lucky to get a WB or ISO button, or wondering if another feature has got ripped out, it's pretty bad really!

I know DK has a mag to run, ..but I'd just really love him to come here.., tell me that I'm not the only one wondering about what's going on, he's seen Minolta since before I was born, surely he cannot deep down say he is comfortable with what's been going on. I'm left feeling that Sony just don't give a damn about users..and don't care, and completely ignore what's said and any feedback given.

[alphaomega]

I am not sure if I would worry about a WB button as I shoot raw and correct WB in software, but even my A350 has a ISO button. I would have thought that the photo world would fall over laughing if Sony brought out a successor to the A700 w/o a dedicated ISO button and all the intermediate settings.

Not sure why Barry Fitzgerald can be bothered berating Sony in such a prolific way here and on DPR when he was not even prepared to purchase a brand new A700 when they were avaliable for £500 or less. I got one and I am now in the position of being able to sit down and wait for Sony to come up with a proper A700 replacement. If he was'nt interested in the A700 I wonder what he would purchase to replace his A200 and beloved 5D.

Frankly the references to Canon look are misplaced IMHO. The key is whether the cam is comfortable and neede buttons are in the right places. Time will show. You cannot satisfy all the people all the time.

The on/off switch reminds me of the R1. Just checked. This is definitely a Sony thing.

[KevinBarrett]

I have to say, it's promising that Sony showed, in concept, a successor to the a700. However, the overwhelming feeling I got when I examined it was "Whoa, my a700 is awesome."

[bfitzgerald]

alphaomega, I am looking to the future.
I'm just being up front, as a company I have no personal issues with Sony, but I see many things wrong, and a direction that is uncomfortable, and plain and simple just wrong. No need to rebuke Sony, they do a fine job of that themselves.

I'm not the only one suggesting they ignore feedback and ideas.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read. ... e=34604758

It's the only DSLR maker whose "older" products are in many ways more appealing and better than it's newer ones.
Every post I've ever made being critical of Sony, had one intention..and one only, to try to get things noticed..so that mistakes did not happen, and for others to join in and put forward their own ideas. Sadly..it appears nothing more than a complete waste of time, on any forum, even directly on the Sony blog..more a graveyard for rants..they never respond to any ideas or suggestions.

[pakodominguez]

I am not sure if I would worry about a WB button as I shoot raw and correct WB in software, but even my A350 has a ISO button. I would have thought that the photo world would fall over laughing if Sony brought out a successor to the A700 w/o a dedicated ISO button and all the intermediate settings.

Direct access to ISO and WB is a necessary requirement for a DSRL IMHO -even if the quick-nav is always handy

Not sure why Barry Fitzgerald can be bothered berating Sony in such a prolific way here and on DPR when he was not even prepared to purchase a brand new A700 when they were avaliable for £500 or less. I got one and I am now in the position of being able to sit down and wait for Sony to come up with a proper A700 replacement. If he was'nt interested in the A700 I wonder what he would purchase to replace his A200 and beloved 5D.

It is probably why Sony (and other people, me included) doesn't take him seriously

Frankly the references to Canon look are misplaced IMHO. The key is whether the cam is comfortable and neede buttons are in the right places. Time will show. You cannot satisfy all the people all the time.

Well, form the angle the press-release's picture was taken, it looks like a Xi series, or a Canon
The pictures from the PMA Show gave some relief, it doesn't really look that canonist

The on/off switch reminds me of the R1. Just checked. This is definitely a Sony thing.

In many ways, we have to expect less Minolta and more Sony -the Alpha division is killing their parents and I'm not sure this is a bad idea.

Regards

[bfitzgerald]

It is probably why Sony (and other people, me included) doesn't take him seriously

Regards

Sony don't take any notice of anyone, you, me, reviewers, review sites critique, feedback..nothing. They live in their own world. So if you don't take me seriously, list out all the areas where "I was wrong"

Was it right to have non defeatable NR raw on a semi pro body? I'd say no..but do fire away
Was it right to dump the decent A200-350 series and replace it with the newbie ones, which I predicted would flop, and they have..
Were Sony right to leave A700 users with no update despite being over 2 years old?
Do end users have a better product because Sony ripped out MLU, and a DOF preview and other useful features, I'd say no myself.

pakodominguez, if you don't take my posts seriously, then you'd want to take a look around, Sony are not doing great, and they have a most unhappy userbase. I'm all for making things better, and better cameras, you obviously feel things could and should be worse, if you think this new model is going to please A mount users, you're in for a big disappointment.

As for killing it's parents..I am sure it's a bad idea..they are killing off all the good points.

[pakodominguez]

First, we may summarize some disappointments regarding the DSLRs:
I have no other disappointment than not having a date for the slimeline launch, and some detail about specs and lenses/adaptors
1- Absence of WB button
2- Same for ISO
this is a no-no. Any DSRL needs it.
3- Nikon/Pentax type of on-off switch
4- Change in button places (could we say: change in Sony style?)
What I saw doesn't bothers me. I would prefer having the same layout as the A700/A900/A850, but I think I'm tolerant enough regarding ergonomics (if the ergonomics are good and/or have a sense)
5- Top LCD
I would like a top LCD with a little more information than the one on the A900/A850 but not with all the information Canon and Nikon give. The A900 top LCD will be perfect if it shows the exposure scale.
6- Slightly Canon look
It is not that dramatic -look at the pics from PMA
7- No info/details given by Sony
yeah, well... I hope they will give us candy every 2 weeks...

Second, some relief:
1- that Sony is showing "something"
something is not enough!

2- partly keeping promises
who promised what?

regards

[pakodominguez]

It is probably why Sony (and other people, me included) doesn't take him seriously

Regards

Sony don't take any notice of anyone, you, me, reviewers, review sites critique, feedback..nothing. They live in their own world. So if you don't take me seriously, list out all the areas where "I was wrong"

I know they don't care about me -and that's why I don't suffer.
But I think they listen to a select group of pro photographers and reviewers: the A550 is the best example: for once since the A100 they don't get demolished because noise levels -i haven't try that camera, so I don't know if that "improvement" kill some of the properties I like from the A700/A850

Was it right to have non defeatable NR raw on a semi pro body? I'd say no..but do fire away
Was it right to dump the decent A200-350 series and replace it with the newbie ones, which I predicted would flop, and they have..

Can you show us the proof that those models "flopped" (and for the reasons you predict)?

Were Sony right to leave A700 users with no update despite being over 2 years old?

I'm an A700 user (I got mine the week it came out) and my update was a 2000 US$ FF A850, that I bought the week it came out. And I don't see any reason to upgrade from the A850 in the next 2 or 3 years because it is a camera that provides almost all that you need (but video, but for video I'll prefer the slimline camera)
Just one thing: I'm not rich, I didn't get those cameras with a special discount (alas...) but paid full price. I use the cameras mostly as working tools (what is sad: I don't have enough time for developer personal projects) and every time I buy equipment the first thing I have to think about is how long it will take it (camera or lens) for pay for itself.

Do end users have a better product because Sony ripped out MLU, and a DOF preview and other useful features, I'd say no myself.

End users had the A700 9you can still find it brand new...) and still have the A850 for that.

pakodominguez, if you don't take my posts seriously, then you'd want to take a look around, Sony are not doing great, and they have a most unhappy userbase. I'm all for making things better, and better cameras, you obviously feel things could and should be worse, if you think this new model is going to please A mount users, you're in for a big disappointment.

Userbase, you mean some forum users? or real people? how many times a year you travel to exotic places (Spain or Portugal or any place in "the continent") in the world in order to have the chance to ask locals about their perception of Sony Alpha division?

Sony is number one (or almost) selling P&S cameras. Specially bridge cameras like the H series, where the Canon G series or Nikon P series are heavy contenders. They know what point&shooters want better than you and me and the lower Alpha series are mind to them -not you, not the guy who have the A700 and don't need for an upgrade as desperately as you think: I'm working 95% of the time with the A850 but I'm not ready for sell the A700 because it is a wonderful camera, much better than anybody that haven't use it expect. They can improve it? of course! but not for you because you are not a good client: you'll wait until the camera get on sale before break your piggy bank!

As for killing it's parents..I am sure it's a bad idea..they are killing off all the good points.

The first think they might kill was KM marketing department.

quoting Kiklop, from Dyxum (http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/sony-pma-pr ... tml#660413)
"
From the look of the "advanced model" we can see that Sony is preparing significant changes in both size and UI which hardly makes any "a700 successor" applicable IMHO.
It is quite different with CaNikon cameras; large userbase and tradition (Sony lacks both) doesn't allow any radical change in the body itself and their system is more prone to "successors" kind of camera.
"
We'll see changes and probably we don't like them all. will Sony listen to our feedback? Inch'allah! but in any case, I'm not ready to suffer because that. I prefer to adapt myself (That's why I bought the A100, a camera I never liked, but it was a good training when the A700 arrived)

Regards

[peterottaway]

Any camera with a more rounded style is going to said to look like a Canon, but like Pako and others my initial reaction is that its much like the Minolta xi series. I don't object to a top LCD as long as it is just info on your settings, not that you can only change some settings on the top and some on the back. That would too much Canon !

I will hold off on really commenting on how the ergonomics are for me until I can look through the viewfinder and then try and change the important settings on the run. And yes I do want ISO info in the viewfinder and a choice of grid style overlays.

[stevecim]

For what's it worth:)
The photos of the mock ups , I've seen around the place look like they are from very early in the design phase and they do not look like pre-production. I would not loose to much sleep missing button/button placement yet but would not be surprised if the A700 replacement got the same "lets make cameras easier to use" treatment, there have be a few interviews posted on the net that when you read them they they sound like Sony don't think they can compete with Can/Nik in the high end camera markets so they are not even going to bother.

Not that I give much weight to interviews but we can all agree that the last 6 new models 2xx3xx4xx5xx where all touched with the "lets make cameras easier to use" brush in a heavy way and I also think that Sony was wishing that A700 owners would have seen the A850 has the logical upgrade.

Seems like Sony are still trying to get their heads around whole DSLR market, I think it will not be long before we see a fixed lens APS-C PnS camera from Sony

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I remember reading somewhere that Sony has dropped from number 1 to number 4 in PnS sales, but I can't find the link now.