PMA round up

[Dr. Harout]

The following interview with seniors at Sony (Imamura and Odashima) is very interesting:
CLICK HERE

[OneGuyKs]

Would EVIL cameras have phase or contrast autofocus?

[Greg Beetham]

I don't see it that way. Much more expensive than the A700, bigger, heavier, no flash, APS-C lenses Sony sold for and were bought for A700 don't work well with A850, non-A-mount lenses can only use M mode, lower fps, etc.

I agree with most of that Henry, there's only one small difference between you and me, I would love to have a FF camera and wouldn't worry too much about the slight increase in weight and the very small increase in size, the flip-up flash is neither here or there for me as I have flashes that will work, also I don't have any potential lens compatibility problems, the only thing I have to decide is, is it worth the extra $1.5G over and above what I paid for the A700....maybe an additional thought could be entered here, what does the future hold for FF? is Sony going to meddle with it too at some point, and degrade it's 'still' taking features.
Greg

ps. You could say there is method in Sony's madness, they stop production of the A700 and then drag their heels on it's replacement proclaiming that there is an easy way to have an upgrade...just buy the A850...I'm thinking that maybe some people teetering on the edge would actually do just that...it remains to be seen, how many will actually do it.

[bfitzgerald]

Please note that I am not saying that I myself do not want many of the features for which you continually beat the drum, just that I do not agree that the effect upon sales of their presence or absence would be dramatic.

With no offense intended, I have felt for a long time that you have fallen into the classic trap of equating what you think is important with what the market in general thinks is important, and disparaging anyone who has a different set of priorities. Personally, a top LCD is of very little importance to me, but probably 40% of my personal acquaintances who shoot with a DSLR place it fairly high on their priority list. They apparently find it quite useful when shooting on a tripod, even though I find no added value in that scenario myself.

With best wishes,
- Tom -
[/color]

I'm simply suggesting, that the approach Sony are taking is not improving their sales, in fact rather the reverse 2009 sales were weak, from what I see. Of course one single feature missing on it's own won't likely hurt sales much (with the exception of HD video, which I feel does have an impact), however..a combination of missing stuff could dent fairly heavily. There really isn't a trap to fall into, I know some don't agree with my opinions, but the muted response and strange approach to some models, does not appear to be working.

Equally, simply adding a top LCD is not likely to help boost sales significantly either. Buyers will be looking for a combination of factors, a competitive overall specification, and something that matches or for once exceeds the competition in at least a few areas, in it's price range. Thus I think the top LCD won't play a major part in that. I would go as far as to suggest fast AF live view, is not a significant factor in most buyers choices, as nobody else has it..and the top 2 makers sell far more DSLR's than Sony.

The problem as I see it, is that entry to mid level Sony are not really very competitive, and I believe that is not down to "the beating drum" on a couple of features, but overall..they don't really stack up well v rivals, this segment is absolutely critical to all the companies, with D5000/D90, EOS 500/550d being key models for Canon and Nikon. It is important that the A7xx is good, and overall stacks up well, but the damage is done the level below that. I see no reason why a buyer would think about Sony, if their overall system is not very appealing. The challenge is to try to stand out somewhere..and we'll see if Sony can do that. The A7xx on it's own, however good..isn't likely to drive marketshare for Sony, with a top lcd or not.

I'm not thumping Sony for the sake of it, or for fun. I can just see exactly where they are going wrong, so can many others.

[alphaomega]

I read Dr Harout's link to the Imaging Resource interview with Sony executives. It is clear (from reading between the lines) that in broad terms there is a determination to improve on the "customer experience" but also this thought that Sony knows best what features to include. There is a specific reference to this attitude here:

Imamura: The issue is how easy can the product make it for the customer to take the pictures. I believe we still have a lot of things we need to do: Sometimes a product that has a lot of features makes it a bit hard for them to use.

You can translate that last sentence into the "crippled" A550 and the lack of buttons on the A7XX.
My view is that if they want to do that on the entry level products, they also need an "all singing and all dancing" APS-C camera to compete with the 7D and K7 type cameras. Time will show if Sony realise that to the full extent and deliver a really worthwhile successor to the A700. I am all for the emphasis on image and sound quality but not at the expense of curtailing features right through the range. They do need a model or models that cater for the top end photo enthusiasts and semi pro types who need all the A700 functionality and any other product improvements because of the diversity of their photographic interests. Simply they need functionality, diversity of use AND IQ.

[Dr. Harout]

...You can translate that last sentence into the "crippled" A550 and the lack of buttons on the A7XX.
My view is that if they want to do that on the entry level products, they also need an "all singing and all dancing" APS-C camera to compete with the 7D and K7 type cameras. Time will show if Sony realise that to the full extent and deliver a really worthwhile successor to the A700. I am all for the emphasis on image and sound quality but not at the expense of curtailing features right through the range. They do need a model or models that cater for the top end photo enthusiasts and semi pro types who need all the A700 functionality and any other product improvements because of the diversity of their photographic interests. Simply they need functionality, diversity of use AND IQ.

Agree, but I think Imamura was referring to entry level DSLRs and EVIL series.

[bfitzgerald]

Dr. Harout is probably right, he most likely was talking about entry DSLR's (and we can include the A450-550 in that), and their ILC models (interchangeable lens compacts)

We cannot make a real judgement on this new A7xx, until it's released or we have final information about what is there, and the layout etc. Sony clearly cannot over simplify things too much at this level, as it would seriously impact sales. On the other hand, the continued "Sony simple" approach on everything below that, is no question hurting sales. The ILC models will most likely be fairly simple cybershot affairs, Sony has shown little to no interest in making stuff for enthusiasts. I feel that is a mistake, and their method of neatly categorising potential buyers and what they want, is flawed..and does not reflect the market. Most of the advantages of larger sensors, is entirely lost on the mass buying market, thus no doubt they will be probably fairly sparse features wise (unless Sony have learnt to listen), and likely not that interesting to people who have a serious interest in photography, in other words the real market for such models!

Sony have not yet grasped the simple idea of making something "easy to use" does not mean "simple and poorly featured".

[bakubo]

I don't see it that way. Much more expensive than the A700, bigger, heavier, no flash, APS-C lenses Sony sold for and were bought for A700 don't work well with A850, non-A-mount lenses can only use M mode, lower fps, etc.

I agree with most of that Henry, there's only one small difference between you and me, I would love to have a FF camera and wouldn't worry too much about the slight increase in weight and the very small increase in size, the flip-up flash is neither here or there for me as I have flashes that will work, also I don't have any potential lens compatibility problems, the only thing I have to decide is, is it worth the extra $1.5G over and above what I paid for the A700....maybe an additional thought could be entered here, what does the future hold for FF? is Sony going to meddle with it too at some point, and degrade it's 'still' taking features.

Greg, I think you are misunderstanding what I was saying. You said something about the A850 being the A700 replacement so that is what I was replying to. Whether you or anyone else would prefer an A850 or not is a whole different question.

[Greg Beetham]

[

Greg, I think you are misunderstanding what I was saying. You said something about the A850 being the A700 replacement so that is what I was replying to. Whether you or anyone else would prefer an A850 or not is a whole different question.

Ha! I bet you misunderstood me first....
I was more or less operating from Sony's position of "if you need more camera than the A700 buy an A850 or A900" (someone said that they heard this from a Sony rep. a month or so ago), and the more I thought about it the more I liked the sound of it strangely enough, being already keen on a FF anyway....it sort of made sense in a Sony kind of way. I wasn't too impressed with that attitude initially though, not after one does a quick price comparo, that tended to knock the wind out of the sails a little. (Maybe they should have a special on A850's, seeing as how they haven't got the A700 anymore, or have a replacement for it ready either).
Greg

[bakubo]

Ha! I bet you misunderstood me first....
I was more or less operating from Sony's position of "if you need more camera than the A700 buy an A850 or A900" (someone said that they heard this from a Sony rep. a month or so ago), and the more I thought about it the more I liked the sound of it strangely enough, being already keen on a FF anyway....it sort of made sense in a Sony kind of way. I wasn't too impressed with that attitude initially though, not after one does a quick price comparo, that tended to knock the wind out of the sails a little. (Maybe they should have a special on A850's, seeing as how they haven't got the A700 anymore, or have a replacement for it ready either).

Okay, I got you now. We are talking about two different things. You are talking about upgrading and I am talking about replacing. Right now there is no A700 replacement. If your A700 dies, gets lost, or is stolen you are out of luck. With the unreliability, in my experience, of Sony/KM cameras this is a big thing for me. If my A700 starts having serious problems again I can't just go out and get the A700 replacement and be good to go. When I had the Canon 30D I never had any problems but if I did I knew I could get a new 30D easily or later I could get the 40D or later I could get the 50D. There was never a situation where one model went away and a new model wasn't available.

Someone on another forum said that it was clear that Sony has a 3 year cycle for the A700 and above cameras. I asked then if what he was saying was that Sony always ends a model 2 years into this 3 year cycle? It is all part of the Sony plan to sell a model for only 2 years and then have a replacement after 3 years with a whole year with nothing? So far, no reply.

[stevecim]

There seems to be a major difference in how Sony kill off models and how Nik/Can do it.

Sony seem to kill off a model anywhere from 3-12 months before a replacement has been released but Nik/Can will continue to sell a replaced model for up to 3 month after the replacement has been released.


I think the Sony way is hurting them more then models they are release, 1. They end up with big gaps during a year/s where they have nothing to offer at a segment. 2. what ever model they release it competes against two models from each Can/Nik 1, the current model in the price range and 2, the older more advanced model that has dropped in price.

Sony should also learn how to make filler models, like the car industries , major model changes every 2-3 years , model refreshes between

How hard would it have been for Sony to release a A710, take a A700 add in 14MP sensor from the A550 + manual focus check and maybe a tilt LCD and added the same useless video function that everyone wants but no one uses and price it $200 more then the A550. This "we will not add video till it's done right" attitude means they will not sell many cameras till it happens and when it does happen they will only have, at max, a 12 month window to sell bodies before Can/Nik catch up. That's providing Can/Nik don't beat them to the punch

[bakubo]

There seems to be a major difference in how Sony kill off models and how Nik/Can do it.

Sony seem to kill off a model anywhere from 3-12 months before a replacement has been released but Nik/Can will continue to sell a replaced model for up to 3 month after the replacement has been released.

I admit that Sony is a large corporation and knows much more about business than I do, although that doesn't mean they haven't made their share of mistakes also. Okay, with that said, I have to wonder that if this is in fact the "Sony way" what does it say to all the professionals that have been lured to Sony and the A900, CZ lenses, etc.? It seems to me that Sony is saying that if their A900 body/bodies have problems, are lost, or are stolen that there is going to be significant period of time where they can't get a new A900 and also can't get an A9xx because Sony intentionally has a long gap where they don't sell anything. This just doesn't make any sense to me, but maybe I just don't understand the camera business well.

For any professionals reading this who depend on Sony gear to make a living I want to ask: Does this "Sony way" work for you? If there is a 12 month or longer period where you can't get an A900 or A9xx and your current A900 can't be used will that be fine with you?

[Greg Beetham]

Looks too me that Sony would expect anyone whose livelihood is dependant on their camera, to buy 2 or 3 bodies, thereby keeping at least one in reserve that's hardly been used....I don't see any other answer that makes sense if Sony are going to have lengthy periods where a given model, or it's replacement, is not available.
Especially not when electronic cameras don't seem to be as reliable as film cameras were, of course some Brands/models might be more reliable than others...
Greg

ps. Maybe Sony thinks any DSLR would do the job, if your A700 needs repairs, just get another one of a different model (whatever happens to be available), A550 for example, (that way they also get to sell more cameras)....doesn't help the professional much if he's used too, familiar with, a model with a quite different user interface...

[stevecim]

There seems to be a major difference in how Sony kill off models and how Nik/Can do it.

Sony seem to kill off a model anywhere from 3-12 months before a replacement has been released but Nik/Can will continue to sell a replaced model for up to 3 month after the replacement has been released.

I admit that Sony is a large corporation and knows much more about business than I do, although that doesn't mean they haven't made their share of mistakes also. Okay, with that said, I have to wonder that if this is in fact the "Sony way" what does it say to all the professionals that have been lured to Sony and the A900, CZ lenses, etc.? It seems to me that Sony is saying that if their A900 body/bodies have problems, are lost, or are stolen that there is going to be significant period of time where they can't get a new A900 and also can't get an A9xx because Sony intentionally has a long gap where they don't sell anything. This just doesn't make any sense to me, but maybe I just don't understand the camera business well.

For any professionals reading this who depend on Sony gear to make a living I want to ask: Does this "Sony way" work for you? If there is a 12 month or longer period where you can't get an A900 or A9xx and your current A900 can't be used will that be fine with you?

I totally agree with you , it seems very strange, I happy upgraded from the A350 to A550 but what if I want something more, i.e A700, the only choice is the A850, hmmm lets see, A550 body only AUD$850 or A850 AUD$2500+


Reading Sony financial reports, Sony improved their second 1/2 of 2009 by keeping minimum stock across all products, maybe someone miscalculated the stock levels they needed in DSLR? We will need a fly on wall in side Sony to know the truth .

They still seem to think that there are is a massive number of PnS users who what to upgrade to DSLR but are to afraid of DSLR's complexity.

Hopefully Sony will position the new Compact APS-C models to cover the low end, they should bring out a PnS "H" (Sony's high end PnS) series camera with a APS-C sensor and bring out some advanced DSLRs to have a better balanced product range.

I concern is what is if the Compact APS-C sell to well and Sony decide they don't need the A-mount any more

[Vidgamer]

Reading Sony financial reports, Sony improved their second 1/2 of 2009 by keeping minimum stock across all products, maybe someone miscalculated the stock levels they needed in DSLR? We will need a fly on wall in side Sony to know the truth .

They still seem to think that there are is a massive number of PnS users who what to upgrade to DSLR but are to afraid of DSLR's complexity.

Hopefully Sony will position the new Compact APS-C models to cover the low end, they should bring out a PnS "H" (Sony's high end PnS) series camera with a APS-C sensor and bring out some advanced DSLRs to have a better balanced product range.

I concern is what is if the Compact APS-C sell to well and Sony decide they don't need the A-mount any more

I think the a700 situation is unusual. Someone must have made a mistake. Perhaps they thought they could go longer without video and had to change plans mid-stream.

My observation is that Sony tries to plan it so th inventory dries up just as the new model arrives. They don't have overlap like others.

That ir article was interesting. So was their other interview with Nikon -- they don't seemto see a market for the compact interchangeable lens. Maybe they will be caught unprepared. What they think is lack of interest, I see as a pricing problem. The manufacturers need to price these near entry level dslrs, not twice as expensive!