PMA round up

Discussion of all digital SLR cameras under the Minolta and Konica Minolta brands
Forum rules
No more than three images or three external links allowed in any post or reply. Please trim quotations and do not include images in quotes unless essential.
Vidgamer
Imperial Ambassador
Posts: 527
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:37 am

Re: PMA round up

Unread post by Vidgamer »

(more thoughts)
stevecim wrote: They still seem to think that there are is a massive number of PnS users who what to upgrade to DSLR but are to afraid of DSLR's complexity.
No, there are PnS users who want to upgrade to something to get better pictures but don't want big, bulky DSLRs.
Hopefully Sony will position the new Compact APS-C models to cover the low end, they should bring out a PnS "H" (Sony's high end PnS) series camera with a APS-C sensor and bring out some advanced DSLRs to have a better balanced product range.
R1? I think they would have continued that range except that they came out with DSLRs to fill that niche. You can't really stuff something like an F828 or R1 in a pocket -- might as well have an entry-level DSLR.
I concern is what is if the Compact APS-C sell to well and Sony decide they don't need the A-mount any more
My concern is that fans of the DSLRs will work to submarine the compact segment and spoil it for the rest of us. :cry:

You know, it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive -- I can use a DSLR for some events, and a compact for others. But if I preferred the compact most of the time, and it's my choice, that doesn't seem so bad.
User avatar
Birma
Tower of Babel
Posts: 6585
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:10 pm

Re: PMA round up

Unread post by Birma »

I enjoyed DK's article about the prospects and potential. As a glass half-full type of guy I feel fairly up beat about the alpha future line up, even if I am disappointed in the length of time between A7xx model releases. It will be interesting to see the differences between the real model and the mock-up.
Nex 5, Nex 6 (IR), A7M2, A99 and a bunch of lenses.
stevecim
Imperial Ambassador
Posts: 568
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:22 am
Location: Australia

Re: PMA round up

Unread post by stevecim »

Vidgamer wrote:(more thoughts)

No, there are PnS users who want to upgrade to something to get better pictures but don't want big, bulky DSLRs.
Agreed, that's way I think a APS-C PnS (fixed lens ) would be a good seller


My concern is that fans of the DSLRs will work to submarine the compact segment and spoil it for the rest of us. :cry:

You know, it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive -- I can use a DSLR for some events, and a compact for others. But if I preferred the compact most of the time, and it's my choice, that doesn't seem so bad.
I don't understand what you mean by this, I've never heard of any DSLR users complain about PnS becoming to good :)
Winedarksea
Heirophant
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:53 am

Re: PMA round up

Unread post by Winedarksea »

Dr. Harout, your forrum has strayed from your op, as ineveitably it would, but I congratualate you on stimulating so much good conversation.

I'd like to add to this conversation by reporting to you posts on and related to Sony Alpha Backstage 101, which is run by Sony, probably Sony USA.

In a string on that site that began on December 21, entitled "Well I have decided to start moving away" (the OP is an aspiring pro), Kayla Lindquis, the director of Sony's Artisans of Imagery program, posted on December 22: "Sony does believe in photographers and wants to create a camera system that makes you successful. I hope you stay with us, there is so much we are about to do."

Since her entry into that string, I have seen an increasingly strong Sony presence in the forums on that site, including several of the Artisans of Imagery themselves--two of whom spontaneaously volunteered last month to attend informal group meetings of Sony shooters int two different East Coast communities.

One participant in the string that Kayla Lindquis entered that day was one Paul Lambert, a professional portrait photographer who studied with Monte Zucker and now teaches himself--but I believe unaffiliated with Sony. Last week, in string on Backstage 101 entitled Forums: News and Announcements: PMA 2020 Announcements, he said, referring to the A7xx protype shown at PMA: "SONY has some big plans for this camera and they have have not sacrificed as much as you may think." I was intrigued, so I looked him up, and this is what I found, on his blog, "Digital Photo Scape" (http://www.lambertstyle.com/wordpress/}:
"Just this last Sunday, SONY announced with great fanfare a series of new Digital cameras and a replacement for the SONY Alpha a700. First let me say that SONY really did not show any real working cameras but instead they presented mockups. But as SONY indicated, the cameras that were presented are going to be hitting the streets sooner than one would expect.

"Mainstream DSLR range to grow further.

"Sony officials also confirmed that the current α range of consumer DSLR’s will continue to grow with the introduction of further new models using the newly-developed Exmor APS HD CMOS sensor and integrating HD video function with AVCHD format. IS this the same sensor used in the SONY Alpha a550? No, the new HD sensor and not the same as the A550 and in fact the Exmor APS HD CMOS sensor is a completely new development.

"I was also informed that the A7xx will have all of the same studio functionality that the SONY Alpha a700 and Alpha a900 currently have. I can only assume that this would include tethered shooting. I also asked about the Sensor Size and ISO range, but was left with an answer that final determinations on those specifications have not been made yet. But one SONY person did say that I will be shocked when the specs and a working camera do appear. The Alpha A7XX will be a large step up from the older Alpha A700 and will be well accepted amongst high end shooters, semi pros and professionals alike. SONY was not going to say if this camera is in what one would call professional caliber of camera.

"But the same person did leave me with a tidbit that surprised me. There is a camera that is in development that is intended to be a big step from the Alpha a900. It was indicated to me that this camera could be considered by SONY as a professional camera and they are intending that the focus of this camera would be in that direction. When I pressed this person about what was said, I was given the answer that we are not allowed to elaborate any more on the development of new future DSLR’s.

"I spent the evening reading many of the comments and dissatisfactions from many SONY Alpha users who read the announcements from PMA and I will simply put it, if you expect that a camera company is going to put every requested feature into a camera that everyone expects you end up with a camera so complex that you end up losing the lower end photographer just learning to use the camera. Also some comments from the SONY Style darkroom forum indicating that SONY was not listening to what is being said on that forum. Another SONY representative did indicate that they do in fact read with great interest a lot of what is posted in the darkroom forum. But as it was said, SONY cannot fulfill every wish that is posted. But there is some requests that have merit and all SONY ask, please hang in there and you will be rewarded."
Dulaney
Alpha 700, SAL 50 f1.4, SAL 18-250, SAL 85 f1.4 ZA
User avatar
bfitzgerald
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 3996
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:48 pm

Re: PMA round up

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Seriously now..backstage 101 is not a place where things happen, it's a PR stomping ground, and the odd user question which gets a reply. It has next to nothing to do with product development.

One Sony expert said..
"Hi Everyone. Trust me. We're listening. Your feedback was sent along the moment it posted."

And did they listened to A200-350 users? They listened to what mid model users want (A550 etc..missing stuff etc)?
Nope. I'll start to take that a bit more seriously when Sony have actual products, that DO take users views into account. Real products that is, not mock up ones in a glass case.
Throwing in odd "Sony paid for" celebrity photographer...is not convincing.
YorkieBen
Acolyte
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: PMA round up

Unread post by YorkieBen »

I'm bemused as to why they have seemingly got rid of the ISO and WB buttons. For me at least I rarely if ever use the exp compensation button but the ISO and WB buttons are used almost continually.

Hopefully ISO will be shown in the viewfinder as well
Winedarksea
Heirophant
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:53 am

Re: PMA round up

Unread post by Winedarksea »

bfitzgerald wrote:Seriously now..backstage 101 is not a place where things happen, it's a PR stomping ground, and the odd user question which gets a reply. It has next to nothing to do with product development.

One Sony expert said..
"Hi Everyone. Trust me. We're listening. Your feedback was sent along the moment it posted."

And did they listened to A200-350 users? They listened to what mid model users want (A550 etc..missing stuff etc)?
Nope. I'll start to take that a bit more seriously when Sony have actual products, that DO take users views into account. Real products that is, not mock up ones in a glass case.
Throwing in odd "Sony paid for" celebrity photographer...is not convincing.

Barry, I don't blame your scepticism about Backstage 101, although I've been visiting it for six months now in order 1) to keep my ear out for what is going on, and, 2) to give Sony some feedback--but I haven't seen you there except once very recently.

Yes, one Sony "expert" did say "Hi everyone. Trust me. We're listening. Your feedback was sent along the moment it posted."

Nothing wrong with that--but for a long time that's all I saw anyone from Sony say, that kind of thing. But a change of attitude seems to be underfoot. Several new "experts' seem now to be participating, and they seem to be much more helpful and responsive. Several of the Artisans of Imagery seem to be for the first time seriously participating in the forums, even though some may not like what they have to say.

More importantly, Paul Lambert is by no means a "celebrity" photographer, nor is he paid by Sony. (Not to say that we should diss what experts and photographers paid by Sony have to say. We have been complaining that Sony had nothing to say; now that expert Sony reps are saying something, we diss them because they are paid by Sony?)

Lambert is a professional working photographer. His take on things is probably better informed, and is certainly due as much respect as yours. And I venture to say that his views on these matters are somewhat more accurate than yours, as are those of DK and George Schaub, the editor of Shutterbug, both of whom I have heard you discount,. Schaub you openly belittled, for no other reason than he disagrees with your views about Sony's recent cameras.

To me, the evidence is that Sony is putting a great deal of corporate effort into the A7xx, and expect it to be a camera that will be so very good, and so ground-breaking, that the several omissions that will inevitably occur, that always occur in moving from one major model to another, will pale by comparison. That is what Sony expects. I hope they are right. In any case, when a company makes the enormous effort I believe Sony is making, they deserve respect, not constant mockery. In the end, nothing but good can come from their effort.

We will know quite soon about some of the new cameras and lenses. I believe that most of us, at least, will be very pleased.
Alpha 700, SAL 50 f1.4, SAL 18-250, SAL 85 f1.4 ZA
Winedarksea
Heirophant
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:53 am

Re: PMA round up

Unread post by Winedarksea »

YorkieBen wrote:I'm bemused as to why they have seemingly got rid of the ISO and WB buttons. For me at least I rarely if ever use the exp compensation button but the ISO and WB buttons are used almost continually.

Hopefully ISO will be shown in the viewfinder as well
I don't think we know that these two buttons have really been eliminated, even though they are not there on the mockup. I want to see both of these buttons retained on the A7xx myself--so it is up to us to let Sony know that we want to see them retained. However, if we do not so this respectfully, they rightly will not listen.

I agree with you about ISO in the viewfinder as well.
Alpha 700, SAL 50 f1.4, SAL 18-250, SAL 85 f1.4 ZA
User avatar
Dr. Harout
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 5662
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:38 pm
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Contact:

Re: PMA round up

Unread post by Dr. Harout »

Wonderful input, Dulaney. Thanks.
This is becoming more interesting. :!:
A99 + a7rII + Sony, Zeiss, Minolta, Rokinon and M42 lenses

Flickr
Vidgamer
Imperial Ambassador
Posts: 527
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:37 am

Re: PMA round up

Unread post by Vidgamer »

stevecim wrote:
Vidgamer wrote:(more thoughts)

No, there are PnS users who want to upgrade to something to get better pictures but don't want big, bulky DSLRs.
Agreed, that's way I think a APS-C PnS (fixed lens ) would be a good seller
Why fixed lens but not an interchangeable lens? Or perhaps both?

Was the Sony R1 a big seller? Sony seemed to give up the "bridge" camera market a few years ago. Was it to make room for entry-level DSLRs or was the market really that limited?

I'd be in favor of bigger sensors, regardless of the system design. In general, it seems like Sony is moving the other way for the P&S lines -- using backlit technology in order to use smaller sensors.

Sigma also uses a fixed-lens for the DP1 and 2, but I think not having (optical) zoom was a flaw in their strategy. Plus there were other limitations. But I wonder if manufacturers have been thinking that there wasn't a market for non-SLR cameras with large sensors? And then micro 4/3 stumbled into success.

Personally, I don't think I would necessarily need an interchangeable lens on a large sensor compact camera, but it allows for some interesting possibilities. If it was going to be one's only camera, then an interchangeable is better. For a 2nd camera, probably a short zoom is fine. Probably what would have happened in the past is something like the R1 which is styled kind of like an SLR; what they need is something more like the micro 4/3ds cameras.
I don't understand what you mean by this, I've never heard of any DSLR users complain about PnS becoming to good :)
Ah, well, then you no longer need to worry that the DSLR line might be replaced, just because you can get the same IQ in a smaller package. :wink:
Javelin
Emperor of a Minor Galaxy
Posts: 1856
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:51 pm

Re: PMA round up

Unread post by Javelin »

Backstage or BS101 as I like to call it. they won't answer direct questiions and most of the time not even a we can't answer that. Try posting anything about macro ring flash it'll be ignored or deleted. I've had 4 posts there deleted without explanation. and a few competly ignored. One that was deleted was about Henrys wheel problem. Another was about alowing 3rd party access to LANC which I'd really like to see on the high end cameras and is something nobody else has done. the other 2 were pressing about the macro flash and why they diasbled it.
stevecim
Imperial Ambassador
Posts: 568
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:22 am
Location: Australia

Re: PMA round up

Unread post by stevecim »

Vidgamer wrote:
Why fixed lens but not an interchangeable lens? Or perhaps both?
yes, Both ;)
User avatar
bakubo
Tower of Babel
Posts: 5875
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:55 am
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: PMA round up

Unread post by bakubo »

Javelin wrote:One that was deleted was about Henrys wheel problem.
Yes, I posted a long, clearly written post about the problem and how to reproduce it on two of the Sony forums. I think I copied it to this forum also. Several months later I went back to check and I couldn't find my post on either Sony forum. I have no idea why they deleted it since it wasn't Sony bashing or anything even close. Here is what I posted on the Sony forums:
bakubo wrote: The behavior of the A700 when eyestart is turned off with regards to sleep mode is strange and, I think, faulty. It causes my battery to drain much faster than it should. For example, turn eyestart off, set Info.disp.time to 5 sec, and Power save to 1 min because it will be easier to see the problems.

The first problem is that the A700 continues to use the eye sensor and that prevents the camera from going into sleep mode. While carrying the camera on the neckstrap (around your neck or over your shoulder) the eye sensor will often sense something close by and will keep the camera awake. When eyestart is turned off then the eye sensor should not be used to keep the camera awake. The eye sensor can still be used to detect that the eye is close and turn off the LCD, but after the 5 second time has elapsed *even* if something comes near the eye sensor the 1 minute sleep timer (power save) should not get reset and start over. This behaviour is okay when eyestart is turned on, but when eyestart is turned off the camera shouldn't be ruled by the eye sensor. Also, even if I hold the camera by the lens very still for 5 seconds to allow the display to go off and start the countdown to go into sleep mode I have found that outside in sunlight the eye sensor sometimes seems to be detecting something (maybe just a passing a shadow) and the LCD will not go off. By the way, if someone wants to turn off eyestart but keep the LCD on for much longer then they can select a longer time for Info.disp.time and/or Power save.

The second problem is that even if the LCD goes off and 1 minute later the camera does go to sleep it is too easy for it to awaken. In order to awaken the eye sensor must detect something and the grip sensor needs to be touched. I walk around and carry my camera a lot for hours at a time (I do foreign travel photography) and because of the weight I usually have the camera strap around my neck and I am holding the camera in one hand to reduce the weight on my neck and to keep the camera from swinging around too much. I cannot hold the camera with my right hand because it will touch the grip sensor and the camera will awaken. I am forced to only use my left hand to hold the lens and it gets very tiresome to not be able to switch hands sometimes. Also, I have noticed that sometimes just a slight brush of my hand on the grip sensor while the camera is hanging from my neck will be enough to awaken it. With eyestart off the A700 should require a button to be pressed to awaken the camera.

By the way, the A700 designers themselves have set the precedent for ignoring the eye sensor sometimes. Another bug is that if I hold the camera to my eye and then change the ISO the LCD strangely lights up. I am looking through the viewfinder and ISO is displayed in the viewfinder. There is no reason to light up the LCD. That is a big nuisance in a dark theater or other place to have the LCD light up for no reason. The eye sensor is ignored which is strange.

I have owned and used several DSLRs from Canon, KM, and Sony. My Canon 30D did not have an eye sensor and it required a button press to awaken the camera (I usually just did a half-press of the shutter button) and it would go to sleep after the time out without any weird shenanigans like in the A700. I think that when eyestart is off the A700 should behave the same way. There have been threads about this subject on some of the digital camera discussion forums also.

I was hoping this would be fixed in the v4 firmware because it is my only major issue with the A700. Otherwise it is my favorite of 5 DSLRs I own or have owned.
David Kilpatrick
Site Admin
Posts: 5985
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 1:14 pm
Location: Kelso, Scotland
Contact:

Re: PMA round up

Unread post by David Kilpatrick »

Just as a comment, the comments made about the Sony sites/forums are why I am here, and not part of Sony. I did attend a meeting, at which tentative suggestions were made on how I might be able to work with Sony (right at the start). The conditions included that no direct replies were ever to be made to questions, or posted on a future website as then planned; all statements (any words at all) were to be placed before weekly approval committee and could not be used until officially passed. I would also have to cease operating any other website, such as this.

In the end, I was not offered the 'make a choice' decision because the plans never materialised. But I made it clear I would be unlikely to accept such terms. I understand why they work like this, it is a culture where legal aspects count in a big way.

I guess they remove posts which do not agree with official policy for the same reasons.

David
dvincent
Acolyte
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 6:09 am
Location: Waltham, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: PMA round up

Unread post by dvincent »

David Kilpatrick wrote: In the end, I was not offered the 'make a choice' decision because the plans never materialised. But I made it clear I would be unlikely to accept such terms. I understand why they work like this, it is a culture where legal aspects count in a big way.
David
Non-disclosure is a big deal for these guys, whether we like it or not. That seems a bit draconian, but when you can be considered a public mouthpiece you need to obey the chain-o-command.

That kind of arrangement can be untenable for some people, and I think they understand that as well. It is what it is.
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests