Nex Cameras as reviewed by DPReview

[agorabasta]

There is no reason for you to be so offensive just because some people have a different view than you do.

By the way, although I thought this comment of yours was over the top...

Henry, my post appeared right after yours simply because you posted while I was writing mine. And I used to think that your position was rather balanced; just that the current crop of NEXes is not for you.

Now I see that you are rather too bitter over that.

But try to think over an analogy - say you see a person claiming to hate a hammer for it not being an axe while arguing to have seen some kitchen utensils that happened to be both to some extent. What would you think? I, in such a case, would take some measures to defend my psyche against such a person's influence.

My point is that inanimate objects can only be liked for being good/useful or they may be taken indifferently if they are of no use. There's no place for love/hatred towards inanimate objects (maybe with exception of works of art and of the money). And if I see such hearty attitude in a person, I take it with a shrug, at best.

[Vidgamer]

I read an interesting analogy recently on a different subject. At first, all automobiles were basically trucks. After a while, more comfortable cars were made. Luxuries added, such as not needing to hand crank to start. Meanwhile, trucks are still available to do the big hauling.

Making something easier and simpler doesn't mean it's being crippled or dumbed down, and if you need a dslr, you can still use one.

The problem is not making something easier and simpler, the problem is when it's decided that's capable of everything a DSLR can do when it so obviously is not. And it's substituted in the market for all DSLRs.

Who says that Nex will do anything a DSLR can do? (Some fanboy post on DPR doesn't count! ) Now, for what I need a camera for, it will probably still not do everything that a DSLR would do, but it will do nearly all that I need. I don't think that's the point of the Nex. For most people, it will do all that they need. Most people don't need a DSLR. I'd even go further and say most people who currently own a DLSR could own a Nex and still do all they need to do! It only has to do what most people need it to do, and no more. I realize that the Nex is not going to be a complete replacement for some uses.

I recently attended a local airshow. Between my old Minolta lens and a 2x TC, I got a some acceptable results. I probably would have done better with a more expensive lens set up. I wonder if I would have been able to do this with Nex? Not as well in some ways, although for manual focusing, dare I say that it might be easier on Nex with the "focus assist" zoom.

Those who have more demanding needs will pay whatever is necessary to get the equipment that they need.

What's the alternative? Do not have cheaper APS-C cameras in order to subsidize the DSLR market for the common good?

Right now you can still use a DSLR, but if some NEX advocates are right real soon now when you go into the store to buy a replacement DSLR you may very well find that all that's offered is a NEX 5 which is touted as being "just as good as a DSLR"

And there will be the in between, when you can buy a DSLR but it will be massively overpriced.

This is a very real possibility.

Walt

It is probable and likely that you will not have the cheaper DSLRs to choose from, but I'm not sure about massively overpriced. At least not moreso that you already see from Canikon. Personally, $3000 for a camera is too much for me, but if someone really needs pro tools, that's probably not a problem. But it's the lesser-expensive cameras (such as the below-A700 level) that could go away (IMHO of course). Although, a lot of the hard-core photographers don't like those cameras anyways. (MLU, viewfinder too small, etc.)

With a disruptive technology like Nex, part of the goal should be to undercut the price. Nex is designed with cost-savings in mind, so that it can sell at a lower price port (and/or allow more profit). This will force DSLRs into the higher market, because that's all the room they will have to work in. So, yes, if you must have a DSLR you will probably pay a bit more.

As for trucks being expensive today, maybe it's reasonable that a larger vehicle should be more expensive than a smaller one. Call me crazy, but more stuff costs more money. But a lot of the problem there is this constant move to go upscale, like the previously-mentioned Land Rover example. What is forcing trucks to go upscale? Do small cars own the low-end market? For a long time, any kind of SUV or truck sold for a premium just because they were popular. OK, maybe the analogy is breaking down here. I understand the point that was being made -- trucks being "dumbed down" don't climb rocks as well. But, that's not the fault of inserting an electric starter or even power steering (or a CD changer radio or even traction control or...). Should you pay sufficient money, you should be able to obtain a truck as capable of rough terrain as before, but you're right -- gone are the days of a stripped-down Jeep.

(I Googled for cheap trucks, and here's AOL's list: http://autos.aol.com/gallery/cheap-trucks/ I took the first truck, picked 4x4 trim and it sells for $23,000, less than my car. Doesn't seem all that unreasonable.)

I just remembered... about hosing out the interior, Honda made the Element with a rubber "hose out" kind of interior. Maybe you could enquire about their warranty details....

[Vidgamer]

There is no reason for you to be so offensive just because some people have a different view than you do.

By the way, although I thought this comment of yours was over the top...

Henry, my post appeared right after yours simply because you posted while I was writing mine.

I don't see that when I look at the thread. I think he objected to your statement in general, but it does sound like he took it a bit personally. It does sound a bit like you were saying, "If you don't like the Nex, you're crazy!" It did sound a bit over the top. Although, I think some of the reaction to the Nex is a bit over the top as well.

....
My point is that inanimate objects can only be liked for being good/useful or they may be taken indifferently if they are of no use. There's no place for love/hatred towards inanimate objects (maybe with exception of works of art and of the money). And if I see such hearty attitude in a person, I take it with a shrug, at best.

I do think some DSLR users are upset. I think they fear that the DSLR will be replaced with an inferior machine, and then they'll be "stuck"... stuck without the ability to purchase their tool of choice. My thought is, worst case, they'll have to pay a bit more. It's just money, and a lot less than buying a truck. It just doesn't seem like it's a given that they will be stuck completely.

For Walt, it's a bit worse, as there is no guarantee that Sony will continue the DSLR line indefinitely, and it's harder for him to change brands. But I have to think that most of the big companies will continue the DSLR lines for a long time.

Pako says it isn't Nex's fault. Agorabasta says that it's just an inanimate object. But what if it is a DSLR-killer? Isn't that reason enough for some animosity vented in its general direction? Or is it just the current manifestation of a new design (that includes the m4/3rds cameras), and so just currently taking the heat. Really, it's interesting how much attention the Nex is getting -- it has touched a nerve somehow.

[bakubo]

Now I see that you are rather too bitter over that.

Bitter?

My point is that inanimate objects can only be liked for being good/useful or they may be taken indifferently if they are of no use. There's no place for love/hatred towards inanimate objects (maybe with exception of works of art and of the money).

Agreed.

[pakodominguez]

Pako says it isn't Nex's fault. Agorabasta says that it's just an inanimate object. But what if it is a DSLR-killer? Isn't that reason enough for some animosity vented in its general direction? Or is it just the current manifestation of a new design (that includes the m4/3rds cameras), and so just currently taking the heat. Really, it's interesting how much attention the Nex is getting -- it has touched a nerve somehow.

Do you know that you can get field cameras, better and cheaper than ever? well, it is not the best example because field cameras are not "mount dependent". But the idea is there. Market rules. There will always be a need for dSRL OVF cameras and the day this need disappear will be because something else took place.

That day, if I'm still alive (hey! I'm not even 40 and in regular situations I have more than 60 years to live in front of me) I'll adapt to the new technology the same way I did adapt (but no forgot) from manual focus to AF, from thyristor to TTL, from film to digital -and many other things in life.

Sony wanted NEX to be revolutionary, I thing they star revolting user forums. Let's see what will be happening NEXt, when the NEX camcorder and new models appear.

[Greg Beetham]

I can almost picture the 100 year old Pako, waving his walking stick at the younger generation saying 'it's alright for you whippersnappers with your 3D Holographs, back in my day we did it tough, we had to use clumsy things called cameras that recorded 2D images that we then had to laborously transfer onto a computer and view on a thing called a screen, they didn't even record any surrounding details at all like sounds or smells, and you couldn't extract any additional information either, like conversations and hidden details in the background like you can now'
'Wow grandpop, how primitive'
Does that sound too far-fetched for 60 years from now? it might not be far-fetched enough maybe.
Greg

[agorabasta]

Market rules. There will always be a need for dSRL OVF cameras and the day this need disappear will be because something else took place.

Market rules - that's quite right, in most cases.
OVF could disappear much earlier, had there been a real demand for high-res EVFs in place to drive costs down. But it's only now that digital is really surpassing film in quality, and if one considers the field cams you've mentioned - the digital is not there yet.
Ideally, it would be optimal to have an EVF to match exactly the sensels of the sensor; say, a 24Mp Bayer-array EVF LED display to match exactly the sensor layout of an a900. And it can be done with modern tech, especially so that it's a low power display - a few mW of power would be more than enough to have it much brighter than the a900 OVF is.

But you know what - at the times of Napoleon wars, there was enough tech to make vacuum tubes electronics, yet there was no scientific background for that. It took a full century for the sciences to get there... Go figure!
So the 'market rules' maxim applies only to a certain extent. We don't even know of how much exactly we, as a civilisation, are capable of doing with current tech...

[Vidgamer]

I wonder how usable the OVF will be for Nex? Anyone know if it displays any info or does it just show framing?

[Danjojo_Resurrected1]

"As with the other accessories, a small threaded screw in the base of the FDA-SV1 is used to affix it to the accessory port, ensuring that it can't be accidentally knocked off the camera. Unlike the other accessories, there's no electrical connection between the FDA-SV1 and the camera body, however."

Imaging-Resource


edit to add - apologize for not mentioning FDA-SV1 is the OVF for the aNEX cameras.

[Vidgamer]

Two steps forward, one step back...

Thanks for the info.

[WaltKnapp]

I still think the NEX is a 'niche' camera, or a camera designed too create a niche, just to see if there are any overlooked customers living in that particular segment that want that kind of camera, Sony might discover quite a few, but I think there will be a lot bought as second cameras. There will also be sales to people as a primary camera only, and that is the market that is interesting, that will be the market that probably makes or breakes the future of NEX style cameras.
I don't think the intention is to try too replace a camera like the A700 with a NEX style one, it would take a much more sophisticated version of NEX for that to be even a remote possibility, we probably are just taking the whole NEX thing a tad too seriously.
The intent of the NEX is obviously (too me), to be a good convenient little second camera handycam, and hopefully make a lot of sales to those who are looking at buying a decent P&S...and that is the tough one, is the price competitive enough? is it portable enough? does the small zoom give enough range? (the 18-200 would, but then it's no longer equivalent too the typical P&S in portability).
Interesting times ahead for the NEX I think.
Greg

ps. Dusty, here in Oz the vast majority of roads are off-road catagory, not suitable for normal cars at all, sure the major well travelled connecting roads are sealed, and most of the secondary roads get graded and rolled fairly often, but if you get off those you could find yourself very soon in high clearance territory, you would take a car there if you like taking risks, or have a good backup rescue plan.

I've been to Australia and loved the outback. I managed a very long tour through parts of the outback with a rented camper van. Took it through places it definitely was not designed for. At one point it had to be trucked out of the outback to get the clutch working. Yep, I know the roads you speak of. And I would go back if I could. (My wife was originally Australian too though now a US citizen)

Today my wife and I were out on a all day foray chasing wildflowers, dragonflies and anything else. Some of the roads were hardly even graded, just logging trails, that's where the good stuff is. No problem for my Ford Ranger 4x4.

I used the 24-70 Zeiss and the 70-300 G, though I had a lot more of my lenses along. Could have used going to the 70-400 G or maybe even longer, but this was fast moving shooting on foot by hand with lots of stalking so I made do with the 70-300G. The NEX with 18-200 would not have stood a chance. That should have been at least the 18-270 to compete. And then only if there were a long lens zoom to go with it. By the time the NEX gets to where it can just do a ordinary day of my shooting it will no longer be a tiny camera. So it better have more going for it than size if it's to replace DSLR.

My wife, BTW, shoots with an Olympus P&S bridge camera, the first P&S she has used as she is normally a SLR/DSLR shooter. And she is extremely productive with that camera, and wins photo contests too. Only reason she's not using a DSLR is that waterproof cases for DSLR are too big and expensive. And her cameras goes along on her racing shell where it has to be fully protected. She's already turned down the NEX for limited focal length, no significant flash, poor macro in the E Mount lenses, and of course no compact waterproof case. The NEX would fail to support her photography, which she is currently doing with a P&S.

Unfortunately Sony has been behaving like the NEX is to be their replacement for DSLR. They advertise it as being just as good at photography as a DSLR which speaks volumes about their attitude about DSLRs. Those of us who actually put DSLRs through their full paces know that's not so and it's only capable of a fairly low level niche and not replacement. But we are belittled, called out of step old folks and lots worse by the NEX, EVF fan club members. We are the people with the most knowledge of DSLR systems and how they work and what they can do and are being ignored. Most of us have tried a wide variety of cameras including P&S and EVF cameras and know their capabilities and limitations. Anyone who thinks we should not be concerned is just not paying attention, at least as far as what will happen with Sony "DSLRs". And what photographic capability they may in the future need and it won't be there.

As for those who tell me I'm old and therefore can just make it out with my a700s. Well, it's likely even as old as I am I will outlive my a700s. And I have a son, who values DSLRs and the a700s just as much as I do and is following me in gaining photographic ability. He's well ahead of what you can do with cameras other than DSLRs. What about him? And he was married yesterday, so it's possible there will be still another generation who most certainly will find out about what all a DSLR can do from him or me, if not other photographers we associate with. What about them? The limited cameras being promoted as replacements won't cut it, and by the time you get them to cut it you will have reinvented the DSLR. If that happens at all. Or more likely the quality of photography that's tolerated will just drop at all levels.

Walt

[bakubo]

I've been to Australia and loved the outback. I managed a very long tour through parts of the outback with a rented camper van. Took it through places it definitely was not designed for. At one point it had to be trucked out of the outback to get the clutch working. Yep, I know the roads you speak of. And I would go back if I could. (My wife was originally Australian too though now a US citizen)

My best friend is a serious birder. Been all over the world, has a very large life list, and is usually the one other birders look to for info since he also loves teaching. Anyway, I remember years ago he told me that sort of a private joke among birders is all rental cars are 4WD. He said it was SOP to fly into a place for a quick bird trip when there was a report about a rare bird, rent the cheapest car, and then drive the hell out of it on-road and off-road. I don't know if that is still common because rental car companies are probably a lot stricter than they were 20-40 years ago.

Unfortunately Sony has been behaving like the NEX is to be their replacement for DSLR. They advertise it as being just as good at photography as a DSLR which speaks volumes about their attitude about DSLRs. Those of us who actually put DSLRs through their full paces know that's not so and it's only capable of a fairly low level niche and not replacement. But we are belittled, called out of step old folks and lots worse by the NEX, EVF fan club members. We are the people with the most knowledge of DSLR systems and how they work and what they can do and are being ignored. Most of us have tried a wide variety of cameras including P&S and EVF cameras and know their capabilities and limitations. Anyone who thinks we should not be concerned is just not paying attention, at least as far as what will happen with Sony "DSLRs". And what photographic capability they may in the future need and it won't be there.

Sony may or may not be going that way -- but it is an electronics company and may not care that much about photography. The traditional camera companies (Canon, Nikon, etc.) will probably be much more likely to keep making SLRs for a long time. Also, they have many more SLR customers.

As for those who tell me I'm old and therefore can just make it out with my a700s. Well, it's likely even as old as I am I will outlive my a700s.

I have seen a few people make comments like that to you. Pretty shameful, IMO.

[Greg Beetham]

How about that, Walt married an Australian girl, I always knew you had a discerning eye Walt... I've never been really really far out West, but one of the things I've always wanted too see was the Desert wildflowers in bloom, I've seen pictures of course but not the real thing...must do that one day, it's a question of timing though as they only bloom for a short while in a small part of the year, Aug. Sept. I think, and you have too watch the amount of rain that's falling/fell as the roads quickly become impassable 'to anything' with just a little too much wet stuff.
I haven't been keeping tabs on Sony's approach to marketing the NEX, but claiming equivalence to a DSLR sounds like marketing splurb too me to get it noticed, notice they even stuck an 'Alpha' logo on it in order too get maximum mileage out of the association, even though strictly speaking it isn't an Alpha.
The Alpha name is associated firmly with the A-mount not the e-mount, the e-mount being the primary mount on the NEX cameras. I still think the NEX is not a threat to DSLR's in it's present form, except too some of the Sony entry models maybe, and Sony can certainly afford to stop making so many of those.
We can 'pro and con' the NEX till the cows come home, but the market itself will determine the future of the camera and the e-mount, it will be interesting to watch. The majors will watch the success (or not) of the NEX for sure, if they decide to make one of their own it'll be because the NEX is a runaway success...I think also the stiffest opposition the NEX has is the 4/3'rds market, it has and is taking off, it'll be difficult for the NEX to put a dent in that juggernaught..and that's why I think Sony is promoting the 'DSLR quality' in a small camera..too attack the 4/3'rd sales, not so much to attack the DSLR market.
Finally, I noticed the name calling/disrespect as well over there at dpr, it's just a sign of the times Walt, someone wiser than I said once 'There is only so much intelligence in the universe...and people keep breeding'
Greg

[bfitzgerald]

It's all down to the buying public as far as NEX goes winner or failure. I think it will do fairly well but it's not likely to stop all over micro 4/3 not just yet anyway. Sony have some advantages in that they can get products into shops that other rivals would find less easy (Samsung for example can be a bit patchy despite a not bad retail presence)

I think I prefer the Kiwi accent to the Aussie one but that's purely down to taste, neither is a patch on a Canadian accent IMHO

[pakodominguez]

As for those who tell me I'm old and therefore can just make it out with my a700s. Well, it's likely even as old as I am I will outlive my a700s. And I have a son, who values DSLRs and the a700s just as much as I do and is following me in gaining photographic ability. He's well ahead of what you can do with cameras other than DSLRs. What about him? And he was married yesterday, so it's possible there will be still another generation who most certainly will find out about what all a DSLR can do from him or me, if not other photographers we associate with. What about them? The limited cameras being promoted as replacements won't cut it, and by the time you get them to cut it you will have reinvented the DSLR. If that happens at all. Or more likely the quality of photography that's tolerated will just drop at all levels.

Walt

Hello Walt,

When I said you were and old guy it was not in a negative way. I meant you had went from MF to AF to digital, you have the experience for answer my question "how much it used to cost a professional camera 20 years ago? how much 30 years ago? "

I never said that "you can just make it out with your A700", but that if you (by you I mean anybody) are not planning to adapt to what the market bring us (market, not just Sony) better to start stocking A900s

Photography appear at the beginning of the industrial revolution and it had been since then one of the engines that push technology forward. Photographers are a collective that had to adapt to new techniques/technology all the time -and that is more critical now that you have a new technology every 16 months.

I dislike EVF as much as you do. If, as you predict, OVF will become really expensive, I'll have to pay the price.