All future Alphas will be SLT!!!???

[tom power 53]

This whole conversation with people staking out there "final" position on the EVF/OVF question is kind of silly but still fun.

IMO the next generation EVF will be significantly improved and will be quite acceptable to most people. This is just my guess though and we will just have to wait and see if Sony can come up with a significantly improved EVF or not. It is close enough for many now but still needs substantial improvement for many.

The entire argument will be mute soon enough though when PDAF is good enough and there will be no cameras with any type of mirror box assembly and thus no OVF's except for a few very expensive specialized applications. Of course the global shutter will probably be replacing the mechanical shutter by then also and cameras will be quite differently constructed and certainly not be called SLRs anymore.

JMO

[Scooterman]

This whole conversation with people staking out there "final" position on the EVF/OVF question is kind of silly but still fun.

IMO the next generation EVF will be significantly improved and will be quite acceptable to most people. This is just my guess though and we will just have to wait and see if Sony can come up with a significantly improved EVF or not. It is close enough for many now but still needs substantial improvement for many.

The entire argument will be mute soon enough though when PDAF is good enough and there will be no cameras with any type of mirror box assembly and thus no OVF's except for a few very expensive specialized applications. Of course the global shutter will probably be replacing the mechanical shutter by then also and cameras will be quite differently constructed and certainly not be called SLRs anymore.

JMO

I also agree with you in every respect, I have tried the A-55 and found it a little strange at first then when I got used to it not bad at all.
But for the semi pro and pro bodies it will have to be a good improvement, and I’m pretty sure it will be.

Richard

[David Kilpatrick]

I think we only have to look back at the KM A2 to understand where the development direction can go. While the AF speed was not stunning, for CDAF it was not bad; same goes for the EVF, it had a choice of 30 or 60 fps. And that was a basic design from 2001, updated in 2003 - eight years ago.

It was abandoned, in effect, because DSLRs arrived and took over that market - including the price-tag, which reflected its features at the time.

Another forgotten bit of camera history can be found in early 35mm SLRs such as the Retina Reflex and Contaflex. These used a rear lens group incorporating a shutter, effectively sealing the mirror box behind a glass barrier. There are good reasons to revive this concept, with or without a shutter, for APS-C digital. First of all, the dust sealing aspect; secondly, with clever design such a rear optical unit can perform floating group corrections never built in to those 1960s cameras - and it can also, possibly, include a universal optical stabilisation group providing a type of in-body SS but not sensor based. Under electronic control of two or more elements in a rear group, other functions such as macro focusing or soft focus could be provided with different front units.

The use of a common rear optical unit restricts the range of 'converter' front units that can be used, but not in the same way as with those old SLRs. It would be quite practical to have any degree of wide angle, and any type of superzoom including 18-270mm or similar. The rear group would standardise the telecentricity and sensor shading.

This approach is the only historic lens design which has not been revived, and it's only a matter of time before it is rediscovered - whether for APS-C DSLRs or not. It would marry perfectly with EVF live view and CDAF.

David

[agorabasta]

BTW, the SLT design does not preclude an OVF. The Sony patent describing what is most likely the "a77" design details with an EVF - http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20100310247.pdf - also states:

However, both the optical viewfinder and the autofocus detecting device 6 can be disposed at an upper position by figuring out an appropriate arrangement of the optical system.

So more crying and stomping may actually deliver some OVF to admirers.

P.S. I'd urge everybody to read that patent text carefully. There's a ton of good info. I was truly surprised that the mirror is presumably built on dielectric reflections - means some polarisation must be present...

[agorabasta]

The rear group would standardise the telecentricity and sensor shading.

Yes, that could greatly improve the image quality of the silicon sensors. Standardising the telecentric design with exit pupil at infinity would work absolutely great.

I was thinking that such a design could be a natural development for the Fuji X100 successors.

[bfitzgerald]

Only a commitment to OVF DSLR's or a development which offers users a "hybrid" viewfinder OVF/EVF will appease OVF users. The howls of protest will continue and there are far more OVF users than most imagine who simply do not wish to entertain EVF's.

Sony's move is very risky not the A55 segment which might be less critical but higher up the resistance to EVF's is far more aggressive and entrenched. They seem to like "fiddling and changing" areas that few ask for (note on/off switch/handling and ergonomics over the years)

I've no problems with hybrid viewfinders if it can be done if being the big question.

[alphaomega]

Not sure about the absolute accuracy of this comment from Barry Fitzgerald

Only a commitment to OVF DSLR's or a development which offers users a "hybrid" viewfinder OVF/EVF will appease OVF users. The howls of protest will continue and there are far more OVF users than most imagine who simply do not wish to entertain EVF's.

In any event
1. He has emigrated to Pentax and has got his OVF.
2. He would not pay the equivalent of a 60D price anyway for a camera if previous statements are still to hold good.
So now it would not matter what Sony did as far as he is concerned. But, of course, he can continue to be the spokesman for all these OVF users here.
As has been stated elsewhere (and flogged to death), seasoned professionals have no problems using EVFs on top of the range video cameras. Nobody knows what Sony are going to come out with. If the rumoured A77 is stuffed with new technology that also will appeal to professional photographers such as
Low noise ISO approaching ISO 100,000
24Mp sensor and shutter speeds well in excess of 10 frames/s and maybe settable at lower speeds as well.
Shutter noise free.
Precise AF to match shutter speed.
Video to beat all other players in the field
Ability to shoot video and get stills matching what say the A560 can do shooting stills only.
Long battery life
Wireless flash and image transfer
Then I will bet my bottom dollar that professionals will look at this camera even if equipped with EVF as long as the reaction time has been reduced to eliminat smears and ghosting.

We simply do not know what Sony have up their sleeve and we should wait before rushing into judgement. The A55 could not beat Canon's 1d IV for AF accuracy at 10 frames/s according to DPReview but maybe the forthcoming A77 will at higher speeds. We simply do not know. I repeat that ample business experience has shown that newcomers to a field cannot beat the sitting tennants with "me too products". Not only is this accepeted but I have experienced it myself in my long business life.

[bfitzgerald]

Another odd ball post this time you seem intent on putting words into my mouth. I still am an A mount user as I have all my equipment thus I continue to post here much your own personal annoyance that much is obvious (I suggest relaxing a little)

I speak only for myself but it would be very naive to suggest there are about 5 people in the world who would prefer to use OVF's and don't want to shoot with EVF models (I don't see a mass defection from other brands either)

Videographers are not "photographers" they are different needs entirely which is I believe the strategy of Sony to pander to video users thus SLT has become a reality (you can debate that but it's obviously a factor) I never even considered a 60d as I'm not really into Canon (though I don't mind them)

Maybe your spec is right but again this is relevant how?
Most photographers don't "need" 24mp anyway some do the majority do not
How do you know it won't have a shutter noise? If it's mechanical it will make some kind of noise
You seem to be able to predict the AF performance as well yet it's not even on the market
Few photographers need 10fps or more (rather useless for landscape and portrait work) 10fps has limitations too exposure etc etc.

Then you contradict yourself by saying "We simply do not know"
Having an impressive spec sheet is only one way to impress potential buyers I've no doubt in that area it will look good. On the other hand there is a lot more to a buyers choice than simply that alone. Even some die hard EVF fans reject the principle of SLT and some do not want a mirror there at all.

[Scooterman]

There you go again Barry assuming most photographers don’t need 24meg or any new ideas
If the IQ is improved by that many pixels or any new things, many photographers would say “yes please”.
But people like you would still say no because, like General Ludd in history any changes or improvements in industry, he and his followers hated and tried to destroy.
So stick to your OVF Pentax and your freebie A-100 and do us a favour and give it a rest, we know your views and to be honest a little fed up with them.

[Greg Beetham]

Sheesh David, that hybrid A2 system while sounding ok, would mean yet another mount/lens design and non compatibility with existing A-mount lenses; Sony can’t keep on top of what’s on their plate now, without getting involved with another mount and system/accessory support for it.
The future is not here yet, due to power limitations, it’s all very well imagining what could be done with an electronic everything instant reaction time wonder cam. Canon already has demonstrated a concept super cam that can do all sorts of incredible things but there was a drawback that wasn’t immediately obvious and the demonstration went to lengths to keep it obscure and that was the demonstrator was wearing a backpack with a large power supply and cooling unit in it and probably an external hard disk as well...
I hope this ‘A77’ is going to live up to all your expectations, I don’t want anywhere near the futuristic stuff that others are imagining it might have, my wants are far less, basically an update for the A700 would be just fine, but I think I’ll have to practise whistling Dixie while I wait.
Greg

[bfitzgerald]

There you go again Barry assuming most photographers don’t need 24meg or any new ideas
If the IQ is improved by that many pixels or any new things, many photographers would say “yes please”.
But people like you would still say no because, like General Ludd in history any changes or improvements in industry, he and his followers hated and tried to destroy.
So stick to your OVF Pentax and your freebie A-100 and do us a favour and give it a rest, we know your views and to be honest a little fed up with them.

Ok I'll take it one at a time here

I believe the resolution/printing needs of most photographers are met mostly with double digital megapixels note the word "most" After 10mp the increases are actually quite small hence comparing a 16mp to a 12mp image is rather minor comparing a 16/18mp image to a 24mp one is not a huge leap forward. Larger prints are dependent on viewing distance so unless you're Michael Reichmann with your nose about 4 inches away from a print it might actually look very good

Anyway I believe the industry has overdone the important of pure resolution it's no longer a quibble point for most (sure 2/3 mp you could complain) The real innovation will come from improved tonality (via 3 layer sensors) and better DR

People like me just have a personal preference nothing more nothing less in the same way some folks like EVF's there is nothing wrong in that. I like Italian you might not if you don't I won't force you to eat it. There is no hatred or mission to destroy recall I support user choice in this EVF or OVF you support no choices just EVF based purely on your own taste

I didn't get an A100 as a gift it was an A200, if you're getting fed up the medicine is simple rather than trying to convince me of your point of view simply accept it's a likely to succeed as a full frontal Union assault on Fredericksburg ie it's not going to happen but we can agree to disagree

[Scooterman]

There you go again Barry assuming most photographers don’t need 24meg or any new ideas
If the IQ is improved by that many pixels or any new things, many photographers would say “yes please”.
But people like you would still say no because, like General Ludd in history any changes or improvements in industry, he and his followers hated and tried to destroy.
So stick to your OVF Pentax and your freebie A-100 and do us a favour and give it a rest, we know your views and to be honest a little fed up with them.

Ok I'll take it one at a time here

I believe the resolution/printing needs of most photographers are met mostly with double digital megapixels note the word "most" After 10mp the increases are actually quite small hence comparing a 16mp to a 12mp image is rather minor comparing a 16/18mp image to a 24mp one is not a huge leap forward. Larger prints are dependent on viewing distance so unless you're Michael Reichmann with your nose about 4 inches away from a print it might actually look very good

Anyway I believe the industry has overdone the important of pure resolution it's no longer a quibble point for most (sure 2/3 mp you could complain) The real innovation will come from improved tonality (via 3 layer sensors) and better DR

People like me just have a personal preference nothing more nothing less in the same way some folks like EVF's there is nothing wrong in that. I like Italian you might not if you don't I won't force you to eat it. There is no hatred or mission to destroy recall I support user choice in this EVF or OVF you support no choices just EVF based purely on your own taste

I didn't get an A100 as a gift it was an A200, if you're getting fed up the medicine is simple rather than trying to convince me of your point of view simply accept it's a likely to succeed as a full frontal Union assault on Fredericksburg ie it's not going to happen but we can agree to disagree

I am not trying to convince you of anything, I know that would be a waste of my time all I want you to do is pipe down, it does get rather boring.

[WaltKnapp]

I tried one

quoted for emphasis.

I've tried over two dozen.....

Walt

[WaltKnapp]

Clearly not here though. How people can judge what the A77 will be like before it's launched is beyond me, but that's what Greg, Walt, Barry et al. are doing. Clearly getting desperate.

The public statement by Sony Spain did not change my own estimate of where Sony was going, the one I plan my future photography equipment on. I'll still give about a 1% chance Sony will continue to produce DSLRs, and even less that they will support high end photography regardless of which camera.

You have not a clue about my emotions. Which hardly enter into my camera system decisions which are based on logical evaluation of the actual equipment designs and performance. Based on the design I can predict at this point that the EVF lag of the a77 will be way too long for me to consider.

Walt

[WaltKnapp]

Apologies if I missed it, but just exactly why is there a delay in the EVF? Is it built in to the design, or is it crippled in some way? IOW, would a software update ever fix it, like Sony did with the NR on the a700? I find it difficult (but not impossible) to believe that Sony would aim at a wide market and fail to account for people who take photos of moving objects.

It's going to rain here for the next couple of days and I'll be in the workshop trying to create a sighting device for the hotshoe.

The EVF delay is an inherant part of the design. Not even fixable by making a faster refresh on the EVF as most of the time of the delay is found in getting a usable exposure to use off the sensor, that's limited by enough photons arriving.

I've already been experimenting with a red dot sight. Not a wonderful substitute for a quality pentaprism OVF, but certainly far more workable with moving objects than any EVF with it's delay only showing a history of where the moving object was.

Hardest part is I've not found a Sony/Minolta hot shoe mount version which requires machining an adapter to mount it.

Walt