Sony UK distribution centre burned to the ground

[Greg Beetham]

Ha ha good one David, hmmm we could try a swap of a few thousand for a while, I bet you would want to swap back asap.
But then I guess there would be short period of grace where one could walk the streets at night in relative safety and your home or car wouldn't get broken into/stolen, at least until they 'settled in' to the new surroundings and opportunities.
Greg

[bfitzgerald]

Fun as it might be to jest and think of ways to offload the problem it does nothing to address the root causes which are:

Parents who take no responsibility for the actions of their children and don't teach them the value of respect for others (or indeed themselves).
Local communities that have serious social issues and high crime rates
Poverty and run down poor areas with high unemployment which allow crime to thrive
A lack of local facilities and initiatives to actually give some of these young folks something to do that is constructive rather than destructive.

Shoving problem people on a boat does not solve anything, nor does a few handed out sentences for robbery or looting public order offences etc.
Cameron can talk about a "big society" all day long but it's merely a throwaway comment and punishment isn't a longer term solution to these issues.

I've lived and worked in these areas so I'm well aware of the problems that they have. A bunch of Eaton educated suits unfortunately take a view of "them and us" them being the "riff raff". They're on a completely different planet to most people unaware and indifferent to the real problems they have. Britain is as fragmented society and it only gets worse over time..until you start looking at the real problems and solutions this kind of action will become more common.

[Greg Beetham]

Those neglected suburbs in London etc. aren't the lone ranger, there are plenty of similar places elsewhere, I've heard of suburbs in Melbourne and Sydney that are just as bad or potentially as bad, and I bet there are others in the US but I don't know their names. Reasons for the problems Barry? you've probably described the conditions that they live in very well, but who's to blame? I'm not a social worker but if I were to hazard a guess I would say overpopulation/overcrowding of those areas would be one of the prime causes of reduced access to services and amenities. There are also plenty of examples of populations around the world irresponsibly outstripping a given resource base by producing too many babies, no new ground being covered there either.
A wise man once said 'One doesn't need any qualifications to become a parent...just the ability'
Greg

[Winston]

Thanks but no, David...similar storms are brewing here.

[Dusty]

DK, I think Britain should send them to the Falklands to learn how to live a simple life herding sheep.

Greg, you're right in that law and order has broken down, starting with what Barry said, their parent's don't teach them respect. There are plenty of poverty stricken areas where people don't loot and riot, nor commit other crimes because they are "disenfranchised".

We should not be paying idle people to sit around and procreate miscreants. Make everyone who can do something to get their benefits, even if it's cleaning the street in front of their house. Also, don't keep paying them for making the same mistakes. If you're having children out of wedlock and your 'baby daddy' won't support them, we shouldn't either. If you find yourself unable to feed and clothe them, there are plenty of people wishing to adopt.

We have the teeming mass of 'underprivileged' because we pay people to create them. And they only think they are underprivileged because they live in first world societies. I want to take my kids to the Amazon to see what I saw - happy people living a hard-scrabble existence in thatched roof, mud walled huts. They don't loot and burn because they don't have enough.

Mayor Daly in Chicago solved the rioting problem at the '68 Democratic Convention on the second night when he issued 'shoot to kill' orders. Only a couple were shot, less killed, and all rioting stopped.

Dusty

[Atgets_Apprentice]

We do have some ships left, not many, but maybe Ark Royal could be rescued from mothballs. Any colonies out there want some of this lot?

David

Good idea. Load them on to Ark Royal, tow it out to sea and scupper it, preferably in the Marianas Trench....

[bfitzgerald]

I wonder if the "storms brewing" is a sudden awakening by many people to the fact they top elite are keeping all the cream for themselves at the expense of the greater population? This is not exactly news to some of us nor new either.

I'm starting to wonder if human nature is a lot more flawed than we would hope.
As for financial problems well all I can say is I'm living in a place where the banks went cap in hand to get money off the taxpayer to bail them out. That's about as anti free market as you can get! So the rich bankers and their friends get a dig out from average Joe who endures hardships for that..story repeated in many countries across the world. Who's surprised people are starting to get a bit angry?

Saying that I'm all for peaceful demonstrations..not violence..I believe the Peasants revolt is rather interesting from a historical perspective.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peasants'_Revolt

[agorabasta]

The only proper way to deal with those who live against the laws of the society is to strip those of the social rights.
Like if some 'ratboy' shows no respect to the others' property, deny him/her the very right of property, so that they cannot possess any property registered in their names. Likewise, any other right could be stripped of a person showing no respect towards the same rights of the others.
Imprisoning the 'ratboys' doesn't really help, as in that prison term they simply become even more anti-social and get organised into criminal communities. So the prisons must exist only for violent crime.

This way the society would eventually divide into full-rights citizens and limited-rights sub-citizens. That would be a return to some medieval alike social structure, with the most important difference that the rights/priviledges are granted/removed by a public legal procedure.

[Atgets_Apprentice]

The only proper way to deal with those who live against the laws of the society is to strip those of the social rights.
Like if some 'ratboy' shows no respect to the others' property, deny him/her the very right of property, so that they cannot possess any property registered in their names. Likewise, any other right could be stripped of a person showing no respect towards the same rights of the others.
Imprisoning the 'ratboys' doesn't really help, as in that prison term they simply become even more anti-social and get organised into criminal communities. So the prisons must exist only for violent crime.

This way the society would eventually divide into full-rights citizens and limited-rights sub-citizens. That would be a return to some medieval alike social structure, with the most important difference that the rights/priviledges are granted/removed by a public legal procedure.

There are some merits in what you say, but some councils are reported to be taking things too far. It is one thing to strip a rioter/looter of benefits, or to evict them from public housing, but to evict family who were not involved in any way, because a son or daughter was, is totally wrong. There are reports of this happening in Wandsworth Borough Council, although the notices being issued are only the start of a lengthy process, which may well be thrown out by the courts further along the procedure.

[pakodominguez]

DK, I think Britain should send them to the Falklands to learn how to live a simple life herding sheep.

I don't think Argentinians will like your idea, nor Latin-Americans ...

[Greg Beetham]

DK, I think Britain should send them to the Falklands to learn how to live a simple life herding sheep.

I don't think Argentinians will like your idea, nor Latin-Americans ...

Or, more to the point, the Falkland Islanders
Greg

[David Kilpatrick]

Although agorabasta's solution sounds extreme, it can happen all to easily to the middle classes - they can be banned from driving, disqualified from holding public offices, disquaified from holding directorships of companies, disqualified from practicing law or medicine - and many other sanctions. If professional people misbehave they often face serious sanctions, and if they default of financial obligations, they may be unable to obtain a mortgage or even rent many properties.

So it's not as outlandish a suggestion as it seems.

David

[agorabasta]

Oh, David!

That middleclass matter is the biggest can of worms in the modern Western society. Definitely, the middleclass is the most important and the most policed social stratum. And they are policed the most exactly for the reason that they are the cashcow for the social structures prevailing at the current state of social development (or degradation for that matter).

If nothing is done to rectify the middleclass over-abuses, there are hoards of new 'Breiviks' to come shooting all that moves around. Things are well over the top for quite a few decades already. And then, there are 'Hitlers' to arrive on the heels of the Breiviks.

[bfitzgerald]

The fact a class system even exists is something I find constantly disappointing in a modern so called society.

[agorabasta]

I'm very sorry, Barry, but a reincarnation of a true 'class system' is the only way that can save our civilisation, saving means not going through a total decay with subsequent 'renaissance' in a few centuries.
It's just that the class attribution should not come with birthright, better tie it up to the real merits of a person.

The basics are very simple - the most antisocial types must be hammered into the very lowest quite despised 'class' having no 'rights' that could interfere with the normal life of the 'normal' social people.

And also, it's the 'bad guys' class that must be policed the most; quite unlike the present situation with the 'bad guys' enjoying the 'life at large' at the expense of the persecuted over-taxed middleclass.