My experience going from A700 to Canon 60D

[bakubo]

Given the problems you encountered with your A700, it's interesting to see that a recent Consumer Reports survey of DSLR cameras from 2005 on shows that on average the most reliable brand is Sony. Proof once again that "on average" says very little about the experiences of a specific individual.

Didn't Sony's first DSLR, the A100, come out in 2006?

[bakubo]

I sold my 60D yesterday after owning it for 20 months. I am happy to report that the whole time I had it there were absolutely zero problems or defects with it. The last time I experienced that with a DSLR was when I had the 30D and 300D. The 60D was also the most pleasurable to use of all the DSLRs I have owned since it just worked and did so without head scratching, brain dead design weirdnesses.

At least for the time being I am using m4/3 (Olympus OM-D E-M5 and Panasonic Lumix G3).

[Greg Beetham]

Erm shouldn't that be 'without' head scratching Henry? and which are the design weirdnesses of which you speak? I thought it was mainly the QC issues that were the issue.
Greg

[bakubo]

Thanks, Greg. Yes, I meant without. Fixed it.

[bfitzgerald]

That's a shame I could have bought it off you because I'm still looking for a DSLR that can focus properly!
I did play with a 60d in the shop a few weeks ago it's nice enough really, I can't really get my head around the 1.6x crop factor though.

[Greg Beetham]

Yeah it’s not as easy calculating 1 and 3/5ths of a focal length compared to 1 and ½ which is reasonably easy to do. Take say a 300 mm, it’s a 450 equivalent on APS-C (1.5) and 480 on (1.6), [(300/5) x 3] + 300, that one isn’t so bad but try working out a 135mm and comparing the results between the two in your head.
Not only that the dof equivalent is different as well; f5.6 is f8.5 equivalent on APS-C (1.5) and f9 on (1.6), there isn’t much in it though.
Greg
Ps what’s the word on the D90’s Barry any good news yet?

[bakubo]

That's a shame I could have bought it off you because I'm still looking for a DSLR that can focus properly!

I never had any AF problems with my 60D with the lenses I used with it. I remember a few months after the 60D came out there was a long thread on dpreview about how unlike other new bodies (50D, 40D, 30D, etc.) there had been very few posts about AF problems with the 60D and wondering why that might be the case. Of course, no one knew, but there was all kinds of speculation about why. Maybe Canon had made updates to the AF mechanism or algorithm or maybe QC had been improved or maybe tolerances had been tightened up or maybe Canon was doing some sort of self-tuning of AF under the covers in combination with CDAF or maybe something else or maybe nothing at all. In any case, I was okay so I was happy.

I did play with a 60d in the shop a few weeks ago it's nice enough really, I can't really get my head around the 1.6x crop factor though.

In real use I never cared all that much whether it was 1.5x or 1.6x. Close enough and I was happy with both.

[bfitzgerald]

Yeah it’s not as easy calculating 1 and 3/5ths of a focal length compared to 1 and ½ which is reasonably easy to do. Take say a 300 mm, it’s a 450 equivalent on APS-C (1.5) and 480 on (1.6), [(300/5) x 3] + 300, that one isn’t so bad but try working out a 135mm and comparing the results between the two in your head.
Not only that the dof equivalent is different as well; f5.6 is f8.5 equivalent on APS-C (1.5) and f9 on (1.6), there isn’t much in it though.
Greg
Ps what’s the word on the D90’s Barry any good news yet?

Glad you asked because I could write a book on it!
First D90 repaired twice still not happy 90mm f2.8 was off but spot on in live view. Contacted seller and basically had to demand a replacement from them because I think 2 repair attempts is enough! That went off yesterday (they paid for UPS collection)
The second D90 was refunded by the seller so I kept the cash in the bank..

This will be my third D90, but I am off for a week little trip so I can't take delivery so the old Km5d's are coming out of retirement..and I'll take along the Fuji as well. Maybe a 35mm body too for fun.

I'm not sure I have any confidence right now I'm half tempted to not even open the box the fear of poor AF haunts me.
If I can't get this nailed down and soon I might have to look at Canon as a last ditch effort. Can't say I have a lot of confidence in Nikon's customer support either..the do reply I give them that. No idea why they can't nail the AF at the service centre though.

Lots of talk of new bodies from both makers turning up..ultimately wherever I end up brand wise it's been a pretty rocky road.

[Greg Beetham]

One would think on the law of averages you would have to third time lucky Barry. Any new models coming out will be at a premium price level for a little while after release so one could probably cross them off the list for the time being. The only cam really left that might fill the bill is the 60D I think. I see it might be going a bit cheaper now, it’s only a few bucks more than a 650D in some places but I think it’s a higher level camera than that one.
I was having a bit of browse through the sales rankings in the US and the D800 is #1 in DSLR category…what the? A $3000 camera listed as number one DSLR, I find that one a little hard too believe, the D7000 has dropped down to around seventh.
http://www.dslrphoto.com/dslr/space.php ... igital_slr
Greg

[bfitzgerald]

Greg just out of my own experience I think Nikon have some serious QC problems esp the D800 has been plagued with problems not just alignment on outer sensors similar to the D7k with inconsistent AF reported. I know just how annoying that can be, even dead easy shots become a struggle.
If they have got on top of those remains to be seen.

Other options are a D7k experiment buying off a big seller like Amazon and just send the thing back if the AF is bad! The D7k is quite a good price but I can't take the torture of bad AF anymore! We shall see I will try to resolve this D90 problem first. All I can say is my Km5d's blew the D90's apart for AF hitting the target and that is quite a worrying thing to say. The film 7 utterly destroys them..

Heck even the A200 which was a bit iffy in low light didn't miss in daylight shots. Maybe I have been unlucky let's hope that ends soon.
The 60d is pretty good with the crop factor the issue is the 17-50mm f2.8 my affordable decent normal zoom loses some of it's appeal at the wide end ala crop factor.

If I sold all the Nikon stuff off I could probably do what everyone else does and buy a 5d MkII and that's it sorted for this type of shooting.
I've not given up on Nikon just yet, but I have to have stuff that's reliable and it's all brand new so you expect it to work properly.

[Greg Beetham]

I was going to mention the 5D MkII but being full frame and still a lot more than a D90 body (probably about three times at best prices I could find) I thought better of it. Also with FF one has to be prepared to probably think about lenses more carefully, there could be more or extra expense on that front as well but it is one of the main cameras of choice for weddings it seems and there are no shortage of lenses for the EF mount. Always an option if the next D90 doesn't pan out either I guess, I still think its really odd that Nikon would let their standards slip so much, that was something you could almost take for granted, that you would get a dependable reliable camera first and foremost.
Greg

[bfitzgerald]

I'm pretty good at saving Greg so I have around £1000 sitting around doing not very much in anticipation of needing to use it.
5d MkII is about £1500 odd if I sold off all the F mount stuff I have I could just about wing it with a basic Canon set up, might be a bit tight on the lenses front but I'd get buy ok for the time being.

I have not given up on Nikon just yet, but I have to say I am very disappointed so far regarding the AF of the bodies I have had from Nikon. I've not ruled out a D7k either, but I'm reluctant to get anything else until I get this one sorted out. There is nothing worse than having to worry about the focus which distracts you from worrying about the other important stuff..ie composition etc.

I had thought the Pentax disaster was behind me..but it seems I've had terrible bad luck with DSLR bodies.
Looks like I am not the only one!

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read. ... e=42233285

[Greg Beetham]

Yes the D800 left AF sensor array problem, I haven’t been following it closely mainly because I wasn’t sure how much of the production it had affected, a few, more than a few, or a lot. I’m still not sure how prevalent it is and how Nikon is handling the problem but if it’s wide spread it’s serious because a $3000 camera is big boys toys and most will want it fixed I’d say, not sidestepped or questioning whether the user is getting incorrect results from incorrect procedures in testing as some seem to suggest in that thread, or others advising the owner to just use it and be happy, it’s as if they are saying Nikon made it that way so its supposed to be that way….keh?
If I were to guess I’d say it looks like a calibration tool was off spec. like the way the Hubble mirror was made with a wonky interferometer (I think) that gave an incorrect result and no one had check tested the tester and calibrated it properly first.
Greg

[bfitzgerald]

Could be right Greg I think it's a bit of a PR disaster for Nikon such a pricey camera too only adds injury to the problem. Your average D3100 buyer might just use a kit lens and not a lot else..they might not spot a problem. D800 user would spot it pretty quickly.
Regardless of the body cost I think something has gone wrong with Nikon, and beyond the D800's too. What exactly the problem is I have no idea, probably calibration..but then you would think QC would pick it up quickly.

I know this though Nikon are not doing themselves any favours with silence on this one, and I know a few Nikon users who are less than happy about these little trips to service. Taking your camera for service can be 2 weeks gone, that kinda kills the fun for some.
So I'm not shocked I got iffy D90's or that other models have had problems too.

I have one theory about how a few disgruntled employees could be a bit sloppy and that would cause a problem! I've worked in a factory years back and it would be pretty damn easy to bypass the sloppy QC and have defective parts going out. One car part maker I worked for this happened and I was well aware of it..so were others, sabotage on a subtle scale but effective! Maybe I'm off base but the second D90 I got was so far off for AF, I have doubts it hit any kind of calibration rig at all.

Nikon need to get on top of this as it will cost them customers.

[Greg Beetham]

It’s as if most of the camera manufacturers have decided they should have a ‘foot-shoot-ow’ department. Sony’s is working well at times with the strange decisions that take place, like with the A77, I wouldn’t mind betting that it started out being a 16MP camera but later in the design cycle after most of it had been mapped out and they had a balanced working design with a buffer size and processor too suit the size of the sensor the ‘foot-shoot-ow’ department heard that the sensor div. had cooked up a 24MP sensor and wanted that put in instead at the last minute knowing that more MP’s is a sure fire winner in the market place.
It started even as far back as the A100, I remember when it was announced along with an initial lens list there were a couple of very expensive FF lenses announced along with it (the 85 and 135 Zeiss primes) as well as the DT 16-80 Zeiss which ended up a fiasco being poorly designed, either that or most of the components except the glass were made in various separate ‘fake shops’ but still allowed to be assembled into complete (but shoddy) lenses. Thing is, why announce very expensive Zeiss FF primes with a fledgling APS-C camera that is/was their first DSLR ever? There was no guarantee that the camera was even going to sell well enough to cover its own costs at that time never mind the cost of making those specialist lenses for a FF camera that didn’t even exist and wouldn’t exist for years afterwards.
And where were the f4 series lenses in the list? Seeing as the A100 was a reasonably compact well featured camera a selection of f4 travel lenses (a couple of zooms and primes) would have made more sense than those FF monsters. And now in 2012 one could still ask the same question, where are the f4 series lenses? The list of weird went on from there, the Minolta Macro flash system they only made half of, the numerous entry level feature poor mini bodies with not much difference between them, the almost non existing marketing throughout, the abandoning of pentamirror-pentaprism still cameras etc. And now the latest (rumoured) the so called A99 will have an ISO shoe instead of the i-shoe, they already moved the on/off switch from where you could see it to somewhere you can’t (to be one of the boys) when you have a lens that’s heavier than a light prime attached so the ISO shoe doesn’t surprise me. And what is the ISO shoe going to do? Enable one to mount a Nikon or Canon flash or radio trigger that won’t work on a Sony camera? Won’t that be swell? I can hardly wait.
It looks like the Canon chief might have got into trouble with the board because the Canon ‘foot-shoot-ow’ department wasn’t working nearly as well as the Sony, Pentax or Nikon’s ones were.
Greg