The Nightmare is over!

[Wes Gibbon]

Clearly Canon were not thinking about more megapixels with the 5D Mk III. To a large extent the megapixel race has been caused by consumer demand. Although most amateur (and some professional) photographers do not produce prints large enough to benefit from the extra definition, and don't have lenses of the required quality to match the sensors (particularly on APS-C), that doesn't stop them from being seduced. I do myself find the 24mp of the A900 gives some extra benefit, but Nikon did not have a 24mp camera to compete with the 5D Mk II or A900 in that price range and I think they needed one with more than 12mp. Long term they may be aiming the D800 more at Hasselblad and Leaf than Canon, and now the D600 competes directly in the 24mp FF market. Bad news for Sony, except that I can't see the A99 actually attracting any non-Sony users anyway. Or me. I am happy with my A900 and collection of lenses, but worry that if the sales of the A99 are as bad as I fear, Sony may abandon FF altogether and there will be no replacement for my A900 if it stops working. Or maybe a FF NEX 9 + adaptor will emerge instead.

[bfitzgerald]

I think the A900 came at a time when there was a lot less action in this area. I'd be curious to know how well the A850/A900 sold? No way of knowing at all but just curious.
Fast forward to 2012 and things have changed a LOT. I'm just wondering if Sony got kinda caught on the hop with the A99, as Canon appear to have been a bit off target with the 6d too..but at least they seemed to position it a bit better. It was as if they were not really expecting the D600 to arrive.

I really wonder if the A99 will actually get a fairly heavy price cut and pretty soon because I just can't really see how it's going to get the asking price Sony have (esp not the UK SRP) It might bag some heavily invested Sony users, I can't possibly see it pulling people from other mounts too. So I would agree that it might be bad news for Sony.

If they wanted to push the SLT FF model they could have made one that was much more D600 ish price wise. I don't think people would really care about a few bits missing. I keep hearing Pentax might do a FF body next year..that might be interesting, but they are badly positioned lenses wise to do that move.
I don't actually have a problem with Canon not being uber pixel stuffing obsessed, I do think that they are taking their eye off the market a bit across a number of important areas. Maybe a 7dMkII and 70d will address that for APS-C users. At this moment I think Nikon will run away with it on full frame (still to pricey for me but hey 10-12 months down the road a D600 might be at a yes price point)

I'd still love to see a 16mp CMOS FF from Nikon in a non pro body..plenty of resolution, and would be great at low light.

[Dusty]

.....
I think it's a dead cert that the next batch of models will be 24mp, wonder if Canon go above 18mp for their model updates (both makers are due updates esp 7d and D300s)
Can't say I care for 24mp I think 12mp was pretty good, 16mp well that's not a big jump but again I think plenty of resolution for most people. Wonder if they will go beyond 24mp on APS-C you have to worry when they bash out a budget model with 24mp on it..where to next?

I do wish the industry would look beyond pixels it's getting a bit boring really, not to mention how badly the D800 would eat up your HDD space! Canon are said to be working on a FF body that goes well beyond 36mp..as if 36mp isn't way overkill for just about everyone! Madness..
...

Can't agree here Barry. I loved MF and LF film because of the quality of neg you got. Nothing on 35mm can touch those 4x5 Negs I shot, and I wasn't even using a Rodenstock lens!

Computers are faster, cheaper and have more storage every year. I remember the early days of doing check imaging, where we had to have arrays of 80GB hard drives for storage. Then all of the sudden we could get 250 GB drives. Now days you can get 3TB, cheaper than the old 80's.

I DO wish that along with that dynamic range would increase, and there are a few other things that would help us as well. I'd rather chase MPs than ISO, as I don't feel the need to shoot landscapes by starlight, of horse racing by candlelight, like some must, else why would they need those uber-high ISOs?

Of course we'll eventually get to the resolution threshold of our lenses, and I'll be happy to stop there, but for now more MPs means I can crop heavily and still get a good photo out of it.

Dusty

[bfitzgerald]

Dusty I never said 35mm was as good as MF or LF..the only think I ever said ages ago was it was "good enough" for many people. Ie it had the mass market bulk of sales.
With digital we're at the stage where we are far from shy resolution wise. Heck a D800 for £2000 get's you 36mp..and Canon are said to be doing a 48mp FF body.

Do we actually need to keep going on with this? I can see how ye olde days of 3-6mp and folks were not that happy..personally I find 6mp is fine for many tasks without much cropping. 10mp+ seemed to ease that issue..now at 24mp on APS-C I'm really not seeing the "need more resolution" argument at all. I fear we will end up with compact camera silly mp numbers on DSLR's both APS-C and full frame. Sure HDD's are cheap, processors get faster but sooner or later makers will have to find another trick to sell, and not just mega-pixels.

I think it's a real shame they can't just call a halt to it and develop the DR, high ISO and stuff like that without constantly increasing the number of pixels. Worse I suspect a lot of D3200 24mp shots will end up on facebook as small web sized shots! What's the point?

[Dusty]

Barry, I agree that for many people, a point & snap is all they need.

But real photographers - not just pros, but the semi-pros and real enthusiasts, want the best quality they can get. That's why there are people willing to pay for Leica products, even if their lenses don't produce 2 1/2 times the quality of a Zeiss, yet cost 2 1/2 times as much. That's why I want a sensor that can out resolve my lenses, because then my limits are getting the best lenses.

As I've often said, when I do weddings in digital, I'm forced to do a lot of wide shooting, because I was trained on square format 6.5, and you could crop either way. To be able to do that in 35mm or APS digital, I need to waste a lot of frame space, unless I want to take each photo both ways. Of course, that's really processional and recessional portions, the bridal party and family shots are almost always horizontals. So, for me more MPs means I can still get a good quality crop for the those who want traditional (at least here in the States) vertical format p&r shots, by shooting them horizontal for the few that will want them that way.

I do agree that I want better DR and colors, but I've shot plenty of action at ISO 400, and rarely need more than a good clean ISO 800. I'll sacrifice higher speeds for the DR and colors. Maybe CaNikon needs to come out with a high speed demon body - ISO 400- 51,200, for those who shoot by candlelight. Am I the only one who remembers that you used to have to hyper-sensitize B&W film to get anything really high ISO? People now seem to expect perfect photos in the dark.

Dusty

[bfitzgerald]

Wandering back to AF issues..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el8QxPb26LQ

And I ran into a pal the other day who said his 5dMkII was "a bit doggie-doo" for AF too. Guess I'm not alone in having issues here.
Can't speak for the A77 or the 5d MkII as I've not had a proper use of either model. I did feel on previous Minolta's the out AF points were a bit naff (mostly used the central AF point myself)

[pakodominguez]

Wandering back to AF issues..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el8QxPb26LQ

And I ran into a pal the other day who said his 5dMkII was "a bit doggie-doo" for AF too. Guess I'm not alone in having issues here.
Can't speak for the A77 or the 5d MkII as I've not had a proper use of either model. I did feel on previous Minolta's the out AF points were a bit naff (mostly used the central AF point myself)

The only think Canon didn't updated from the original 5D, when they launched he 5DII, was the AF module -that was already slow and sloppy -definitively the main complain from 5DII is the AF. the AF on the 5DIII is better but still not au pair with the high end models.

[bfitzgerald]

I doubt the 5d MkII could be "that bad" but hey I might find out soon as I have a friend who will be getting one so I can comment more if that goes ahead and I get to try one properly.

Quick update, the saga rolls on..
For fun (well a cruel kind of fun) I ordered another D7000 off Amazon. And strangely it showed the same back-focus the first body did (a little less but still strong)
I can't afford to have money tied up in iffy AF bodies so that one is on it's way back to Amazon for a refund. I did perform an AF test with the Km5d and the 2 D7000 bodies.

The results were pretty scary. The now clunky and dated Km5d managed to hit the target with the 50mm f1.7 wide open from various distances, neither Nikon body could manage it, both missing and showing strong back focus (using a 35mm f1. only heavy AF fine tune (around -15) helped the problem..but still showing signs of inconsistent focus. Esp a problem on zoom lenses where AF fine tune just can't compensate for the AF that isn't IMO properly calibrated.
I have opened a support ticket with Nikon UK, explaining the problems..bar a kind of David Copperfield magical miracle (ie they actually do something to solve this properly without any hassle for me) I would say my time with Nikon has come to an end.

I have expanded my A Mount collection to include a new flash and a lens from a forum member purely because I was so sick of the problems I just needed something that I could fall back on and I knew "worked" 6mp or not. Plus I could again have some fun with a UWA zoom on the 35mm bodies I have.

I have not entirely ruled out a "bites tongue off" purchase of a Sony body, EVF angst or not (might even look at s/h something) I feel that despite changing mounts twice I have had nothing but an awful experience despite actually liking the other 2 makers in many ways, some very serious QC concerns with both. Economically it does of course make sense to have a combined mount, rather than a new one. It just remains to be seen if I can find something that I will be at least comfortable with. Even if I just run with one Sony body of some kind, I could manage that fairly easily. I have enough lenses to be able to do this bar just a few additions..

The other choice is of course Canon, whilst I am not a natural Canon user by any stretch of the imagination..they do of course have a pretty big camera system, something like a 60d is probably good enough and not a bad price. At the moment I will wait to see what I can do with this Nikon and how that pans out. Failing that I will have to get rid of lenses and a high end Metz, I will lose some cash no question. Where I go from here I have no idea, just that the old 5d is still working and I've enough lenses to run that and a second 5d as backup. For some tasks both bodies are perfectly fine.

I have learnt one very very important lesson. In my quest for a snazzy spec sheet and "features", I got a whole load of hassle instead! There is a lot more to any camera than just nice bits, the D7k and D90 were great cameras, with frankly bad AF (well the ones I used) I've never seen anything like it. So I think if I learnt anything at all it's that sometimes you just have to roll along, and not nitpick that much!

Maybe DK was right all along sometimes you just need the basic stuff done pretty well (like AF!)

[bakubo]

Considering your recent bad luck it might be a good idea to try and find a used camera that has worked okay for the owner and that you can try out first.

Barry, too bad I am not in the UK. I still have my A700 that I am no longer using. The only problem I ever had with it is the sometimes flaky control wheels, but it looks good and works well. I take it out from time to time and since I stopped using it several months ago I have not been able to get the control wheels to act strange. It was always intermittent though. Anyway, if I was there I would let you borrow to try out with your lenses. By the way, mine is the U.S. version with the grip sensor.

Good luck with whatever you get next!

[bfitzgerald]

That might be an option, I've no idea on the AF of the A700 though.
It surely can't be any worse than this, though the A77 youtube video is scary!
I borrowed a 17-55mm Nikkor and 16-85mm lens in the vain hope I have defective lenses, and they showed exactly the same problem.
It's quite sad a 2005 DSLR like the Km5d can thump a much higher classed camera for AF accuracy.

Maybe Nikon expect users to fine tune the AF, but that only brings in a few lenses, it's not a long term solution esp not for zoom lenses.
Hugely disappointing as I like the camera in every other way. I'll see what Nikon say when they bother to respond. If they do I expect nothing then then bending over backwards and a massive effort..else it's bye bye Nikon.

[Greg Beetham]

Barry get Henry's A700 and give it a run, it's a lovely camera.
Greg

[pakodominguez]

Quick update, the saga rolls on..
For fun (well a cruel kind of fun) I ordered another D7000 off Amazon. And strangely it showed the same back-focus the first body did (a little less but still strong)

Hi Barry
I always though you were sort of a Drama-Queen. Now I think that you really enjoy it!

[bfitzgerald]

Pako I was just curious and with Amazon they are easy to deal with aka returns.
I've escalated this to Nikon UK directly so I expect to see what happens early next week. I am actually very concerned that I could encounter this with a total of 5 bodies. It seems impossible..

I have to chew this over..quite a bit if I can't get this sorted out properly. I do have FF options esp with the A900/850, I have the optics to support that at least a decent enough set up plus a few extra lenses will do the job fine. Flash again not a problem with the new Metz flash I have for A mount. But..I will have to be able to get my head around this SLT thing..

I can't deny the economics of running 2 systems are not great. On the other hand you want to use something you like.

[Dr. Harout]

Barry, I'm afraid you have to change the topic title to: The Nightmare is NOT over...
Heed my advice and try the a57. Try the EVF and in a week you won't get back to OVF.

[pakodominguez]

Pako I was just curious and with Amazon they are easy to deal with aka returns.
I've escalated this to Nikon UK directly so I expect to see what happens early next week. I am actually very concerned that I could encounter this with a total of 5 bodies. It seems impossible..

Do you remember the JDMC/JCII gold "PASSED" sticker?
Well, since it is not there anymore, sampling became an issue. What is weird is that any simple sample you got was faulty. I can understand that the Refurbished body you got had issues (hey: it was refurbished because someone had it before and didn't like it...) but the other bodies also with problems...

I have to chew this over..quite a bit if I can't get this sorted out properly. I do have FF options esp with the A900/850, I have the optics to support that at least a decent enough set up plus a few extra lenses will do the job fine. Flash again not a problem with the new Metz flash I have for A mount. But..I will have to be able to get my head around this SLT thing..

I don't have any idea how this can work in the UK, but here in the USA you can find now, at certain Sony outlets, A900 and A850 refurbished, for really convenient prices. Otherwise and A850 goes on eBay for about 1200$. A body in good condition goes for 1400 $ on Dyxum