A900 and Tilt & Shift

[alphaomega]

David Kilpatrick in his A900 review in BJP was mentioning the lack of a Sony T&S lens as a minus and there is not even one in the known lens pipe-line. That reminded me of Geoffrey Crawley's Amateur Photographer (28/7/07) review of Hartblei's 35 mm F2.8 super-rotator perspective control lens, which is (was? - see below) available in the Minolta AF/Sony A mount (http://www.hartblei.eu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). (Only problem this lens appears to have disappeared from Hartblei's Web site so maybe only second hand copies can be got. There is now a new line with very expensive optics).
There is also a 35 mm T&S lens featured on this Web site: http://www.rugift.com/photocameras/mc-3 ... lta-af.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. It shows compatibility with Minolta Dynax so should be usable on tha A900 as well.

I used the Mamiya T&S lens on my 645 Pro and am of the opinion that whatever can be done in modern software there is nothing to beat a good T&S lens. I would love to have one for my A700 even if it worked out to be more like a 50-55 mm on the APS-C sensor. Maybe the Rugift one would do?

Anyone with any experience of using any of these third party T&S lenses on Minolta/Sony AF/Digital cameras?

[mastroalex]

http://www.dyxum.com/reviews/lenses/rev ... IDLens=260" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.araxphoto.com/specials/shift-35/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[alfake]

Alphaomega: Mirex Tilt-Shift-Adapters (http://www.mirex-adapter.de/tilt_shift_adapter.htm) will convert any Mamiya 645 (or Hasselblad) in a T/S lens for the Alpha mount (via a T2 adapter). I have recently got the M645 version of the Mirex T/S adapter. It’s not at all cheap, but works as advertised. The image quality that can be expected from an A100 (pixel density similar to A900) with a Mamiya 645 lens (by means of the Mirex adapter) was shown and discussed in this thread: http://www.photoclubalpha.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=792. And a stitched photo shot with the same kit is shown here: http://www.photoclubalpha.com/forum/vie ... 5416#p5416. (Sorry, alphaomega, if you have already seen those threads.)
Alfonso

[David Kilpatrick]

I have recently got the Ukrainian made tilt adaptor for Pentacon Six lenses (£125 or so) and obtained a 50mm Zeis Flektogon for it, I already had an 80mm ARSAT and the shift adaptor. So far, results at f11 look pretty good but the manual exposure and focus limitations of the A900 are of some concern. I found it difficult to assess exactly how I was adjusting the focus plane, in relatively dim light.

I may get the Hartblei/Arax 35mm super rotator - I think it is only sold now by Arax, the optically guaranteed Hartblei is no longer around:

http://araxfoto.com/specials/tilt-shift-35/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Main problem is that $685 is not cheap for something built round a Kiev Arsenal factory lens. The new Mamiya AF 35mm f3.5 is a wonderful lens - I have used this on the ZD - but as remarked, the older 35mm manual is not so hot and the superior Pentax model is hard to obtain.

The Arsenal factory did make a 45mm f3.5 tilt-shift for Kiev 60 (not 88 - it has the old Hasselblad 1000F bayonet) and I bought this by mistake from Ffordes for £160 s/h, had to return it because of the wrong lens mount. Apart from that it seemed well enough made, I guess I could have worked on adapting the mount.

David

[alphaomega]

Thank you for the information provided above. It would appear that I have potentially three options open to me when needing a shift lens:
1. Continue to use my Mamiya 645 Pro with the excellent 50 mm Mamiya C Shift Lens (Bulky and I may be acosted as a potential terrorist these days).
2. Purchase the Hartblei/Arax 35mm super rotator and use it on my A700, accepting that it will be more like a 52 mm lens.
3. Purchase the Mirex Tilt-Shift-Adapter incl. M42 converter and use it with my 40 mm Mamiya Secor W/angle lens. This lens produces excellent slides and is probably better than the 35 mm manual that David Kilpatrick is referring to. It would probably act as a 60 mm on my A700 but it should be quite sharp as only the centre would be used with APS-c.

[tbroadley]

Do not use the Hartblei 35mm/f2.8 T&S on the a900. The tilt shift adjustments on the lens rub against the prism housing when mountin/unmounting the lens and puts pressure on the mount. Also the lens is not capable of meeting the resolution of the camera

Tim

[PhotoTraveler]

I hope this is the kind of thread Sony Reps read and wake up. If you have system users trying to figure out how to obtain a hacked together solution there is a real problem.

As I have said many times now. The A900 is the exact camera for people who use TS lenses heavily. Yet they didn't bring any such lenses. The popularity of these lenses is growing quick. Mainly because the need for them is bigger than ever with the death of film. In the past year Nikon has brought 3, Leica is bringing one for the S2, Hassy has brought a neat adapter that serves the function well, and Phase One has brought one. And Canon is rumored to be bringing updates to theirs. I don't know what it will take, but maybe it's when Panasonic launches a coup and brings a 4/12mm TS for mFTs that Sony will catch on. (Seriously, I think Panny will do just such a thing).

If Sony can't see a major flaw in the A900 strategy such as lack of TS lenses, I do fear for them. If they had brought a D3 like body, sure, no TS would make a bit of sense. But they brought a Medium Format Replacement.

David, to your knowledge and maybe through your own actions. Has the message at least been solidly sent to Sony and they have confirmed received the message from userbase of want for such a lens? Lord knows I have tried.

Just imagine if a 20 or 24mm ZA TS had been in the works with the A900. And given to the right kind of shooter. Sony could have had something. Give it to someone who does mainly medium format work with view cameras. Maybe a Michael Riechmann, but probably many others out there like them. If they could have them using it and showing the world that Sony offers Medium format replacement with High Rez, and German glass in a small, inexpensive package they could have pulled in the More Pro than Pro market of Medium format and up in for themselves.

But nope, we get people trying to work with 4th party lenses, which get out-resolved by the body, collide with the body, no automation, and of course the A900 makes using non-rom'ed lenses harder.

Will just have to keep waiting for the only Stabilized TS option out there.

[David Kilpatrick]

We have to assume until someone says otherwise that the Arax is identical to the Hartblei in mount size. I've seen the dPreview post from a purchaser who has found it will not fit the A900 without fouling the prism. I can confirm that the Ukrainian tilt and shift adaptors do not foul the prism, and that at f11 (a sensible aperture for most studio work) the 50mm CZ for Pentacon Six is a fair match for the 28-75mm in resolution.

David

[DonSchap]

Maybe this is a monkey-wrench of sorts, but I have gotten the distinct impression that if the Japanese-market does not show interest in a SONY product, it simply does not get made.

Is T&S big in Japan?

Hartblei's were all I could find and I guess they're gone, now, too. With Adobe PS software solutions kind of available to this operation ... through "Select">"All" ... "Edit">"Transform">"Distort", then dragging the corners out or in to acheive the parallax correction you want? The need for this kind of lens has been ... in my opinion, reduced.

Of course, there is nothing like have a piece of glass like this in your bag, but the question remains, is there STILL a big demand for it, now, in light of the apparent software solution?

Hey, don't kill the messenger!

[PhotoTraveler]

Well, all TS lenses designed/made for 35mm camera systems are made in Japan (Nikon and Canon).

Nikon cannot keep stock of their new TS lenses. The first batch of the 24mm was sold out before they even arrived. Second batch hasn't been slowed in demand. The TS lens market is a major growth market. Nikon was late in getting theirs out.

Digital has increased the demand for such lenses massively. In film days, average folks just took snap shots. They didn't get too creative because it was too expensive to do, and hard to learn when you have the long delay from shooting the shot to seeing how you did. Tilt Shift lenses were not that important because anyone who needed such ability just used a 5x4 view camera. Such a rig was pretty cheap, especially if you just use a 6x7 120 back on it. Just develop the film just like you would with 35mm. No big deal. Now film is dead, people don't want to deal with such rigs and so forth. So the need for TS lenses is higher than ever.

Add to this the new market of amateurs learning more. They can now buy gear and use it hard, taking lots of shots and learning new tricks. And if they buy a lens they don't like, selling it is pretty easy with ebay and such. So people are experimenting far more.

TS lenses are not expensive. If you are willing to buy a 2.8 pro zoom, you'll be fine with buying a TS lens that cost less. Anti-TS people keep saying they are a niche market, but the reality is once you go past Kit Lenses, and mid-level lenses, every lens is a niche. And for years the manufactures focused on the big teles because those were sold to photo agencies, newspapers and so forth. The bulk of the pro market in 35mm was there. Now the market is much more diverse with amateurs knocking on the door buying gear in the sub2k area. A 1100-1800 dollar TS lens isn't that all niche. Any camera shop knows they will sell far more TS lenses than they will Super Teles that are 2K and well beyond.

When it comes to TS lenses, the main issue is people aren't aware of them, or what they can do. I follow the nikon world pretty heavy the last few years. When they came out, there was a lot of WTF? But as people bought them, and showed their shots, people who never saw the point started buying them. People started getting it. The Nikon TS lenses have been very popular and critical to the migration back to Nikon. Now are people going to be like I would be and using a TS for over half our shot if I had one, probably not. But If you are a wide angle shooter, your going to be very interested in one. I absolutely hate seeing stuff tilt, the most shots below 28mm on FF really need some form of tilt or shift to look right. If your like me, you pull up on a shot a lot, look at it, and then don't take the shot simply because it's a waste without a TS to make it right.

Far as Japan. I think Japan has been one of Sony's best markets. All sony needs to do is build it, show it in a commercial or their help things they do in Japan and it will be a huge hit. Also just look at any serious A900 review, the ones I see all point out the lack of TS lenses as a flaw, and those reviewers are absolutely correct.

[David Kilpatrick]

Hartblei lenses are not gone yet though the Super Rotator is entirely out of stock in all types - I was with Phase One today, and they are now using Hartblei for a totally redesigned 45mm f3.5 TS (Kiev assembled, CZ Dresden glass now). I had a play with the older model and realised that the £160 Kiev TS I sent back because it was in a Hasselblad 1000F type mount was the same glass. Maybe I should have had it remounted. The 35mm Arax/Hartblei may not be an option, but could be modified. The 45mm has fully alignable T and S - you can rotate the tilt to any angle relative to the shift. This makes it superior to the Canon or Nikon, both of which are one orientation only (the Nikon can be changed through 90 degrees by service dept or determined D-I-Y, but the Hartblei can be rotated as you wish).

David

[aster]

Hi David,

So can we say that going with Harbleit 45mm for the moment is a good and safe choice?
And I'd like to second the wish that Sony would hear and respond to the particular demand for Tilt & Shift lenses.

Thanks,
Yildiz

[David Kilpatrick]

Any lens which fits the Pentacon 6 to M-AF adaptor is OK. I have got the various Pentacon to M-AF adaptors - plain, shift and tilt - and they all fit OK and clear the prism. The Hartblei 45mm is designed for 6 x 6 and has a huge coverage circle, and with the adaptor down to 35mm formats, will work fine.

David

[Schmiddi]

Hello!

About adapters: there are adapters for MF-lenses made by Zörk and Mirex, I contacted both. Zörk (shift only, up to 20mm each side) confirmed that the adapter can be used with A900, but only with Hasselblad mount. Mirex (shift up to 15 mm + tilt) answered that Hasselblad mount should work (they were not sure and offered to send the adapter for testing, but I don't have a Hasselblad lens). Both adapters will NOT work with Mamiya mount.

Adding a MF-lens has the disadvantage that there is no true wide-angle - there is a Hasselblad 28mm, but I never saw one, and new it's veeery expensive. 40 mm is around sometimes, but even on a A900 quite long...

PC-lens: there is also the Schneider PC-Super-Angulon 2,8/28 mm, shift only up to 11 mm. It is also available with Minolta-AF/Sony-Alpha mount (you can pick up a used lens and change the mount by yourself, as a read - I'm looking for it). It's not too expensive, and no tilting is not really an issue for a wide angle lens.

Andreas

[David Kilpatrick]

The Hasselblad 28mm is not a corrected lens, and only works when fitted to new H2D or H3D cameras equipped with software to correct severe moustache-form distortion. It would not be possible to use it on an adaptor (it is not Hasselblad V mount anyway). Mamiya's new 28mm lens, which is compatible with standard Mamiya AF mount, is a true rectlinear ultrawide and could in theory be used with a suitable adaptor. As far as I can tell, it would be possible to engineer a lens unit such as the Komuranon 24mm f2.5 (a 1970s design which can be removed physically from its outer focusing mount) into the Russian tilt adaptor, which would have the effect of shifting the front nodal point relative to the rear and re-center the image.

David